Speaker 1 (00:00:12):
Welcome to art and the raw. I’m your host and Kelly. Today. I am pleased to introduce my, my friend, Brian Taylor. Brian is a photographer and spent a few decades as an educator and as a director. And today we’re gonna talk about his adventures as a creative person, both in the past present. And if we get to it, maybe even the future. Thanks for joining us, Brian.
Speaker 2 (00:00:41):
Thank you, dear. And it takes a creative person to know one.
Speaker 1 (00:00:45):
So where are you today? Brian?
Speaker 2 (00:00:47):
I am at home where I live in Carmel valley, California, and my temperature is probably, uh, 40 degrees warmer than yours right now in, in New Mexico. So the
Speaker 1 (00:00:59):
Last time I saw you was in Carmel at, at the center for photography mm-hmm, <affirmative> where you were the director for how
Speaker 2 (00:01:08):
Long? Five year, almost five year, what an
Speaker 1 (00:01:11):
Amazing institution and passed the torture over to, uh, Anne JAST. Yeah. Well, and, and you kind of did that cuz you were ready to kind of fully delve into your own art, maybe just even more so
Speaker 2 (00:01:26):
That’s very true. Yeah. My time as, as a nonprofit director, um, came after almost 40 years of teaching, you know, as a university professor. So I had have long, long to get back to my own art. So it’s a real joy now to, uh, to not be responsible for students or for keeping a nonprofit afloat. So it’s really a joy and I’ll show you some of the things I’ve been doing.
Speaker 1 (00:01:52):
Perfect and real quick. So you were at the San Jose Institute of,
Speaker 2 (00:01:57):
I was at San Jose state university, California state university in San Jose. And I started a off as a professor for many years. And then I became the chairman of the department of art and art history. And you
Speaker 1 (00:02:09):
Started working there when you were about 25 years old?
Speaker 2 (00:02:13):
Yeah, right around there. Yeah. Might have even been younger, but uh, and when I was in your beautiful state, the land of enchantment, I did my MFA at U N M that’s great. And uh, I was very young back then and it was, uh, I can tell you some tales of that as well, along the way, such a joy, I mean, such a privilege to study with, uh, people like van Darren Coke, you know, who had set up that program directly from the George Eastman house and then also Beaumont new hall was there. I mean, you know, I got to sit in a room with 12 other grad students and listen to Beaumont Neal, tell firsthand stories of, uh, when Edward and I were, you know, setting up the Nautilus shells or an and I were in front of the, uh, Aspen tree. I mean, it was incredible to take the history photography from someone who didn’t use any notes. And if it had anything to do with the 20th century, it was all firsthand experience. So I’m, I’m so beholding to those days in your, in your state. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:03:16):
What an amazing experience. So you prepared some images for us, perhaps we, we jump into those,
Speaker 2 (00:03:25):
Let’s do that. And I promise to, uh, keep this quick and uh, hopefully never a dull moment, never. Uh, but I thought I would start off with this image because it it’s a great place to, to begin in by saying that I had a very conservative and strict upbringing in photography. I, I, I ate, slept and breathed the zone system. So here’s a real strict black and white silver print. And I loved, uh, every summer to run away from home. This is when I was about 18, 17 and 18. I’d run off to Virgin junior city, Nevada and hang out with this master of photography, Oliver gag Leonian he certainly, you know, never became a household name, like his great friends, ans Adams and win Bullock and others. But Oliver of all those people was just, just right with them in terms of being a, a maniac for technique.
Speaker 2 (00:04:20):
So he, I became great friends with Oliver. So we’d take off for two weeks. Um, well I would take a workshop from him then we’d bash around in my van and, and go barreling around the Nevada desert. So here’s Oliver setting up his beloved five by seven dear DOF in front of, uh, one of these outbuildings in Nevada. Then I was lucky enough to go off to, uh, U NM for my MFA and, uh, and super grateful to have studied with this man, the most intimidating man in the world. <laugh> this was his usual look, uh, to, to us mere mortal grad students, you know, you’d pass him in the hallway and he would not always Dan to recognize your existence, but again, an incredible resource to study with. And I I’m so sorry that he went off to heaven’s dark room, you know, several years ago in Santa Fe, I do believe, but he is a legacy for sheriff and Darren Coke.
Speaker 2 (00:05:23):
And of course also at U N M Beaumont new hall there, uh, with his pal and I want to give credit, this is a Martha Kane photograph of these two giants together. And this is another reason why Beaumont new hall taught the history of photography, you know, first person. Uh, and, uh, then I went off, uh, was that ental college. Um, before I got my MFA, I was working on my undergrad degree and ental brought this giant to, to the university. They flew him in to give him an honorary, uh, degree in conservation, a PhD and somehow, uh, and again, I was like 19 when I was doing my undergrad there freshman year, uh, somehow they knew I was just a photo para photo maniac. So they, they, unfortunately for Ansel, they put me in charge of taking ’em around the university that day <affirmative> and I can, I can give you another great story, uh, sometime about, uh, when Ansel Adams jumped out of <laugh> a moving car.
Speaker 1 (00:06:25):
I I’d like to hear that story
Speaker 2 (00:06:27):
Or Ansel. They, again, Oxidental put him in, put me in charge of him and I wanted to impress him about all I knew of his life. So I got to take him around campus for a day. And then, then incredibly this is before insurance, uh, you know, issues became a reality nowadays, but they, they just piled him into my car. And I took him off to the LA airport, which luckily is about an hour away from, from the university. You have to go all across LA. So for the whole journey, I just told ’em and then, then you were leaving Georgia Keith’s house, and then you looked out your window and the sun was sitting over, um, you know, um, Hernandez. Right. You know, and you, you didn’t have time to take a light meter reading. So you jumped on your roof, you know, <laugh> so this was like 60 minutes of, of pain for poor Ansel. So I, I recall that as we just even got near the LA party, he goes, this’ll be fine. Brian throws a DOP and just jumps out like at 40 miles an hour. <laugh> that’s how I recall it. And that’s how he would recall it too. <laugh> but I digress
Speaker 1 (00:07:33):
The last time you spoke to him,
Speaker 2 (00:07:35):
Uh, no, I saw him for birthdays and things after that, you was pretend like he didn’t know me. <laugh> <laugh> um, I thought I’d just show you some things I did when I was in school, in your beautiful state, the land of enchantment. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:07:50):
You know, you have described, um, alternative processes as voodoo alternative processes. I kind of,
Speaker 2 (00:08:00):
Yeah. Chris Easter, you know, when I began and when you began with your stereotypes, there were no digital cameras. There were, there was no Photoshop. There were no, uh, really laptops, generally speaking. So this is all very analog. So that was really voodoo, man. We didn’t have, have curves or, or command Z, you know, in Photoshop, you can do something go. That was the dumbest thing I’ve ever done. Oh, well command Z I’m out, you know, right. There are no do overs in your world, in mine, in the beginning, but I was born in Tucson. So I believe every word of Carlos cast, you know, who, whose books were very popular years ago, maybe 40 years ago when I, uh, started reading them. If ever you walk through the Sonora desert, you know, especially at Twilight, you will believe what Carlos said about coyotes coming up and talking with you, you know, uh, course if you took the plants, uh, that Carlos took you, you you’d have lizard.
Speaker 2 (00:09:03):
I mean, he used to tie lizards to his shoulder and they would whisper the, the seekers of the world to him on peyote. I think that’s probably, uh, realistic. This is just an example of, uh, early work. I did. I was, I was born into the photo world, very, very strict, you know, with zone system and precision and, and, uh, treating the photograph as a sacred object as Ansel did and Oliver and all that whole F 64 group. But I am really thankful that, uh, I ran into Levi, Betty H who taught at U N M and also Tom Barrow was there scratching his negatives, which was just radical in those days, radical Hery to, to defile a negative. So Betty taught me gun printing. And so here is, um, a gun print on top of ay type with chalk pastel in the sky. And even I would rub Chuck pastel in my fingers and, and pat my, my fingerprints into the sky.
Speaker 2 (00:10:01):
So, you know, you and I talk about voodoo photography and I’m so drawn to it for me, it’s, it’s such a joint to see the artist’s hand in the work. You know, I have the highest respect for digital printing, uh, and that’s, that’s take us places that traditional darkroom photography could never go. Uh, but I, for myself, you know, I’m gonna take a stand, you know, in my own work. And I just love making more with my hands and I adore imperfections and sometimes mistakes are a real gift. Uh, this whole series is about places of magic. So it contain places like stone Hinch. These are all places that were made by human hands. And so it really meant a lot to me to print them in a process that sort of reveals the touch of a human hand. And I, I’m a believer it’s kind of an old fashioned belief now, uh, after postmodernism.
Speaker 2 (00:10:53):
But, uh, I do believe, you know, that a work of art made by hand retains a touch of that human hand, like an aura really mm-hmm <affirmative> especially, you know, these are all one of a kind and, uh, you can’t quite, I could never reproduce the scratches. This is like a, a couple days of work printing, a gum print over a sci type, and then say my three home marries and then take, uh, you know, a <affirmative> Zach and I even scratch, uh, those marks into the stones to kind of energize them, maybe kind of, uh, imbue some sort of magic to them. Other magical places built by hand, uh, with mixed media things like chalk pastel, and, uh, watercolors. You could go across the world to Egypt, to pyramids or across the Pacific to stone hinge. But you, as you well know, Anne, you know, there is no more magical place than places we have in our own country.
Speaker 2 (00:11:49):
And Choco canyon is, is as incredible and mystical is anywhere on earth. And Chris, this goes back to the days, this was around 1980, before things started getting roped off. Um, and, uh, Steve fit and I rented a house together when we were grad students at UNM and people like Judy data would come by and live with us for a few days. And we’d, we’d go out to chunk of canyon and at night, uh, in, in an altered state, I can say no more <laugh> and I’m pretty sure one night we saw a dead horse skeleton, like a white horse skeleton, uh, just radioactive in, in the Moonlight. Uh, I’d have to check with Steve or Judy on. I did not know you lived with Steve. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, and of course these are the Kivas at Choco canyon where the, uh, native Americans danced to keep the world turning.
Speaker 2 (00:12:43):
So I, I really thought an appropriate way to print these images was handmade just the way these Kivas were made by hand by them and continued my love of, of voodoo photography or doing photography the hardest way. Uh, and so I began a landscape series called the art of getting lost, which allowed me to, uh, wander, uh, and, uh, combine different photo processes. Uh, I, all of, most of why non silver work begins as a sci type. So here’s an image as a sci type process. It, uh, then switch to gum biker mate gum printing, uh, is very finicky, but the reason people are willing to endure, uh, that grief is that it it’s one of the few photo processes that at least allows you, you to make a photograph in any color that you want, because you, you make a gum EUL by squishing any color of watercolor or gush that you want to into the pot.
Speaker 2 (00:13:45):
So you can have brown photographs, black, yellow, green, which by themselves may not be that attractive, but imagine mixing color and then brushing them on top of sci type. So here’s a green emulsion. I won’t belabor it, but you can see my registration marks out here in the margin. So I can put my negative back in register and then processing the green run. And then with a very bright, safe, light mix brown emulsion and with a brush, I’m actually, it takes maybe half an hour to do this, but I’m brushing brown emulsion just on the tree branches. And so then you expose that in sun, in a contact printing frame, maybe 10 minutes, bring it in, soak it in water. That’s how you develop gum prints. And then, uh, after, you know, a layer, two of, of all these layers, you, again, you say four hail Marys this time and you coat it, uh, with black, there’s completely opaque.
Speaker 2 (00:14:46):
So after all that work, you know, my, I can’t even see my underlying layers, but I can see my registration marks, which I also have on my negative. So if I can line up my negative with these marks, then my images in register back into the sun, another, uh, few minutes. And if all goes well, the black comes off, uh, where you want it to, except for in the dark parts, like the shadows. So at the very end, the last thing you can do, maybe the fourth run that you’ve given this print. You, you just kinda set the contrast and the shadows with your black gum is
Speaker 1 (00:15:24):
A pretty challenging process in, in my experience.
Speaker 2 (00:15:28):
You’re not kidding. You do have to be a glutton for punishment. That’s for sure. Yes. You know, but photography, you know, I, I find, and I’m sure you do too with your, with your great work in, in non silver processes, like sci type, um, it’s half science and half art. So I think you and I have to, we have to be part glut for punishment, part interested in chemistry, optics and science, you know, and, and part crazy. And, uh, <laugh> all of that and part artists. But anyway, you know, when things go right, you, you and I can create things that could not have been made in any other way. You know, a digital print is not gonna look like this, a silver, print’s not gonna look like this, a color. Photograph’s not gonna look like this. You can see the texture of the watercolor paper.
Speaker 2 (00:16:16):
You know, I print on, uh, fian or arches, 140 pound rough watercolor paper, which gives you that beautiful texture. You see these, uh, happy accidents, which I think are just a delight to show imperfections. And I will often make books with these pictures. And I’ll in a few minutes, I’ll show you some installation views of my, uh, shows that have presented books as wall art. I’m glad you included some of the books. You and I will leave no stone unturned tonight. And this is the land of enchantment. You can again, see there’s a brush applied photo process. So as platinum, you know, some platinum printers will show you their edges, their kind of raggedy margins that show, show that a human hand brushed on the emotion. So I love, I love these imperfections and I, I love making books because they’re very tactile. I, I love deckled edges.
Speaker 2 (00:17:13):
And here here’s an underlying page on that book that that book might have been maybe, uh, three feet wide or so. So I continued on with my love for handmade books. And, you know, I love the book format because it allows you to add text if you want to. And I try to keep it very, very minimal, almost like haiku, you know, make every word count. This has pages of text seemingly torn out randomly. And I, I might as well confess that, uh, I am one tight MOHO <laugh> I think, you know, speaking philosophically. Uh, and I think that every artist is, uh, born, uh, to use, to use my terms. I I’ve gotta come up with better terms, but, uh, I think everyone is in life is born tight or born loose. And, and we know who we are, you know? So I mentioned that because in order for me to make these pages look like, like they were just ripped out by the wind or ripped out by a madman, uh, believe me, this took me, you know, carefully tearing carefully tearing, keeping mind, make this look like it was not carefully torn, you know, born
Speaker 1 (00:18:29):
Like a careful mad man.
Speaker 2 (00:18:32):
Yes, yes, yes. And, and the tragedy is, and of course I’m really generalizing that’s for sure. Uh, I’ll go out on a limb and, and you can saw it off on me, but you know, I do think people are to use better terms like soup. We’re either born super meticulous or like blessedly forgiving, you know, of ourselves, whichever way you’re born. You sort of secretly are trying, you spend your life trying to, to be the other person. So I’m like super meticulous, you know, that’s, I’m sure why I was drawn to the zone system. I mean, you can’t get more tight than the zone system, even before digital photography or maybe just
Speaker 1 (00:19:08):
Photography in general. It, it tends to in its origin come with, with so many rules, we don’t always have to follow those rules going back to the
Speaker 2 (00:19:18):
Beginning. You’re so right. You know, uh, a painter or a drawer would never go near photography. They, they would see it in a different way than we, than we do, but they’d see it for what it is like, man, before you get to an M you’ve got, you’ve got a camera in between you and the subject. And in, in, in analog photography, then you have developing tanks, liquids, developer, fixer water. Then, then you’ve got an en larger between you and your final, uh, object, even in digital photography. If you update it, you know, you’ve got a camera, then you gotta process it. Then you gotta worry about printer, profiles and printers and all that stuff. Uh, so you’re absolutely right, Anne. I think photography is filled with science and optics and formulas. But anyway, I do love this book format. These might be maybe 24 inches by, uh, they might be like 16 inches by 24 inches or so they vary.
Speaker 2 (00:20:18):
One of the, one of the things I love about books is that I can, I can treat them as books I can. I can do with books as what they are. They are pages on top of pages. So in this image of, uh, Creek in near lake Tahoe out here in California, I can take a picture of the Creek, throw a rock in it first to create a little fish ring. And then I can tear out the upper pages to reveal underlying pages that shows these beautiful little, very rare golden trout, uh, that are just in, in a few of the rivers here in, uh, in this region.
Speaker 2 (00:20:56):
Or I can juxtapose two different pages together to kind of create a new scenario. This is called the good wife, uh, my wife, and one on one page, you know, with their bow and arrow that my little son made. And on the other page, my little son throwing a fish up in the air. These are all silver prints Cton, but they, they really are real handmade books. And I really enjoy, uh, you know, the labor. I mean, this is a whole added chapter or two beyond just making silver prints and window matting ’em, but I just absolutely love the materials. I love thread and I love binding things and I’m not a professional book binder. So there are plenty of imperfections. Are they one of a kind or I’ll make very limited additions of like three or seven and none of them will ever be the same.
Speaker 2 (00:21:49):
None of them will ever have anything close to the same underlying pages. Um, and even, you know, the deckle edges won’t be exactly the same from book to book. The stitching probably be different. Uh, CIA toning of course might differ. Uh, but again that I love that too. You know, if, uh, if someone takes one home, uh, they basically have the only exact version of that. And when people take them home, uh, I nobody’s ever said this to me, but I’m sure that they said, thank you very much. And we’ll give you a check for this. And you know, they go home and they immediately get out their screwdriver and pop, pop the back up the frame. These are all, uh, Plexiglas, uh, encased in shadow box frames. You know, two book lovers, you know, bili of files have actually, uh, scolded me for in toing books.
Speaker 2 (00:22:43):
You know, book lovers wanna get their MITs on a book and turn the page. But I actually prefer to show these, I, I’m sorry to say where you don’t get to turn the page, but if you do take the back off, uh, it you’ll find it is a book with maybe 10 pages behind, uh, behind each of these visible pages. Like many people, you know, like Sally man, especially, uh, you know, you, you have children and you try and operate them in your lives. I had a ball with my two young sons and we’d learn how to make paper boats and we’d launch them. Uh, unfortunately for me, this is all poison Oak out here in California, but it was fun to take a picture. And this is a silver print hand colored just to prove this ain’t no digital, you know, manipulation, I’m out there S slacking around. I own with my Pentech six by seven on my back here, my light meter. And I discovered I only get about one good float, you know, uh, before my boats sink. So, uh, fashion shut speeds are required.
Speaker 1 (00:23:48):
Hopefully you brought a few extra boats,
Speaker 2 (00:23:51):
So true. So true here I am. One of my favorite places. I was just there two weeks ago in Joshua tree and we gotta go. We gotta,
Speaker 1 (00:24:02):
I wanted to go. I’ve never been
Speaker 2 (00:24:05):
It’s that that’s
Speaker 1 (00:24:05):
It, that’s high. So high on that list of places that I need to go.
Speaker 2 (00:24:11):
We who, who knows you. And I might talk about traveling sometime, uh, during our chat and, uh, I have a good to round you up and just other superstar, uh, people, my beloved friend, Ted Orland out here, he and I go barreling off into the desert now. And then friends of yours, like Chris Macau goes out to Joshua tree. Sally man is a dear friend of Ted. She she’d come along with us. Lori Verba, Beth moon. We could, uh, have a great time out in the desert being
Speaker 1 (00:24:41):
Creative sounds amazing to me. I meant
Speaker 2 (00:24:44):
Ted and I have led work workshops out there, but we we’re so unprofitable again, we don’t even wanna charge tuition. We just say show up at this fantastic hot Springs hotel. And we’ll, we’ll head off into the desert from there. But anyway, just a few more examples of books, uh, again, doing with books, what you can do with books. I find this book format is so liberating, cuz it allows me to show a picture, took in a Boston subway, just kind of a hellish Boston subway, where everybody’s trying to not be on a bus subway. You see these people caught in their, in their daydream, prompted the yeah, the title, our thoughts wander. So how do you, how can you show what’s going on in some mind? So for me, I’m thinking that she’s thinking about a much more peaceful place than this rattling dark subway. So this was the most peaceful picture that I have ever taken. And it’s, uh, outside the golden gate in San Francisco each year, they have what they call the tall ships come in. Uh, you know, these historic SCHs will come in through the golden gate. So this here it is off the California coast. I’m up on a cliff and it just struck me as such a peaceful scene. And maybe, you know, maybe that’s what she’s thinking of.
Speaker 1 (00:26:02):
Like what time of year do the SCHs come
Speaker 2 (00:26:05):
In? You know, uh, I think it’s the summer. I live far farther away from San Francisco now. So I’m not up on if they’ve come in lately. Sometimes I think they only come in every couple years or so. And as a matter of fact, they might, somebody’s gonna write in and, and correct me on this. And I welcome that. I think, you know, these are real old fashioned big, and they may have to come around like through the Panama canal or, you know, they to get from the east coast to the west coast, they gotta do it for real. So they, they do it every few years and it is so, uh, enchanting to see the, these, uh, old ships come under the golden gate bridge. And of course, you know, a million people turn out for that, but here’s just another installation view of what these, uh, books would look like.
Speaker 2 (00:26:53):
And, uh, if, if photography weren’t hard enough for one lifetime, uh, I’ve kind of dabbled in poetry as well, which is hard enough, whole other lifetime, but I’m crazy enough to try and try and, uh, express myself in, in those two different media in, in some lame way. Um, and I, I won’t take our time right now to read any of these, but these are, uh, more like folios than they are books. Um <affirmative> but they don’t have underlying pages. This will be a scene. I took of a really damaged desk in, in a school room. And this was one of my first poems that I wrote when I was chair of an art department. And I sat around a table this size with other tenured professors. And we had to go through the dossiers of the young excellent, the young professors coming up after six years of really hard work, they submit their dossiers to get tenure, you know, and we, and we, fat cats, uh, are going to decide their fate. You know, whether they get tenure. Usually if, if a professor doesn’t get tenure, they, they have to leave, you know, after six years, I mean, this is academia. Anyway. Uh, some of these are on my website. If anybody wants to,
Speaker 1 (00:28:13):
I was gonna ask if people, if people wanna read them later that most of them, or some of them at least could be found
Speaker 2 (00:28:19):
There. I included this one because it’s so photographically related, this is something we can, we photographers can all relate to. This is the, you know, beloved, uh, and magnificent Tina Madi. Uh, and I ain’t the first one to photograph her, if you know your photo history, actually this is not Tina Madi. This is my patient wife, you know, wig, you know, kind of a Italian, uh, brunette hair like Tina had, but we all know Edward was the one to, to make those incredible pictures of his lover, Tina Madi. So I wrote a poem kind of from a teachers standpoint called touching Tina Madi. My relationship with her would be touching her just like this with a cursor, wondering if this is dust on the reproduction and the book picture where I, that I photographed, you know, for my history slide lectures was her dust on the book cover. Should I just, you know, effortlessly take that out in Photoshop. So this is all about, uh, my chance to touch her, which is unfortunately just about removing dust, but so big
Speaker 1 (00:29:26):
In photography. I gotta say dust, isn’t that true? Film photography. Yes,
Speaker 2 (00:29:31):
You’re so right. You’re so right. Uh, and again, the, my patient wife, you know, sometimes I’ll get these ideas that I want to, uh, make visible. And I, I, you know, we all know the story about that. Uh, Russian scientist, Pavlo, who, who discovered, you know, when you ring a bell, you can make dogs salivate, you know, if you ring a bell and give them food enough times, then all you have to do is ring the bell and they’ll salivate. So he was, you know, pioneer in that human or not human, but animal, uh, reflex. So I thought, what if P had had a wife and she kind of spoiled all his test subjects, you know, she might be kind of ruining his experiments if she brought the dogs into bed and they slept, you know, on the bed. And so these are just things that are on my mind.
Speaker 2 (00:30:19):
And my wife is not the only one. I, I torture anybody who ends up being a son of mine, has to go out and act like a deer. Even though the mosquitoes are, are biting the poor little guy, uh, and curse. This is the film days, which I still love. This pandemic has been a hardship. It’s been hellish on most people <affirmative>, but for an artist it’s not so bad. That’s all we, we artists have ever wanted is for, to just spend time in our studio. So that’s what I’ve been doing in so many other artists. So I’ll just come down the home stretch and show you some of the things that were done on the last few months, I took a, a hankering to return to do photography. So I returned to SCIS and had the pleasure of being on Cumberland island just about exactly a year ago with an unbelievably creative group called tribe.
Speaker 2 (00:31:16):
They are spearheaded, uh, no pun intended with Spears and, and incredible strong women. Laurie Verba and Anne Barry are the ring leaders of tribe. And they’ve, they’ve done incredible things, making, creating community and teaching these workshops on Cumberland island off of Georgia, just a few miles off of Georgia. So we all went off there, Ted Orland and I, and uh, about 10 other amazing people. And we just were creative for 10 days or so this is a real Fox. I mean, this really is a real photo. I’m not saying it was alive, but Anne Barry brought her what they call soft mounted. Never knew there was such a thing. Lori, uh, has a soft amount coyote. If you can possib believe, believe it. That means they’re taxidermy, but they’re beautifully done. It’s probably very expensive. So, uh, Anne brought this, like if you put this Fox on your shoulder, it was a fantastic picture.
Speaker 2 (00:32:15):
If you just put it under a tree, it was a fantastic picture. Um, cuz it was a R it was a real Fox. So I had this one curled up on a bed before I made this picture. I’d been working on another thing that’s rattling around in my BD brain. And I, I just, I would watch my dogs sleep. You know, we, we all do who have dogs and they’d start twitching in the middle of the night. And I, I really think they’re dreaming, you know, maybe they’re chasing something they’re wooing and you know, just the thought came to me. I thought maybe God, if God dreams, maybe God dreams in sleeping dogs. So I worked, I took all kinds of pictures of my dogs, nothing worked. And this is such a great lesson that if you’re totally frustrated and you’re just failing, failing, failing, why is people tell us, psychologists tell us, you know, that your brain is continuing to work on these problems that you’re trying to solve. So I, I had to stop on my war path, you know, trying to get a great picture of my dog sleeping. And I went off to Cumberland, you know, a little bit disappointed that I had to stop. What I knew was a good idea. And lo and behold, best thing that ever happened to me was to stop, uh, you know, to shut up, you know, and stop going down that road, go to Cumberland and unbeknownst to me, it’s gonna be a Fox. It’s gonna be a Fox that’s three. So I think that’s very inspiring
Speaker 1 (00:33:43):
That photo you were trying to make at home got made.
Speaker 2 (00:33:47):
You’re right, Anne, I think before we go, one inch further, are you a dog woman or a cat woman?
Speaker 1 (00:33:53):
Uh, dogs, a hundred percent. I’ve had, I’ve had dogs my entire life.
Speaker 2 (00:33:58):
Here’s some critters. This would be no, this is almost a typical scene on Cumberland. I mean, there’s just magic all around with the wild horses that are on that island. I do like to show my titles if, if they’re, uh, important, but I I’m lefthanded and I’m using a Quill pen and a liquid acrylic paint, which is just a total curse. If you’re left handed and you love fountain pens or long hand, because as we lefties know, all you do is you just completely smear what you just wrote. If it was a fountain pen or an ink pen, you end up with blue all over your left hand. You, you know, you know who you are. It’s amazing. How many of my friends are left-handed it’s unreal, good people. I think lefties, uh, find each other. You wouldn’t happen to be lefthand today.
Speaker 1 (00:34:45):
I, I am not. No, no. With snowboarding. I am lefthanded. Oh, or I’m, it’s called goofy. I basically goofy snowboard like lefthanded person. So I’m a little Ambi dextrous when it comes,
Speaker 2 (00:34:59):
But here’s the final destination for that print those horses. Uh, there are things you can do to sign types. As you know, with, uh, toner, uh, things like tea or sodium carbonate, you can kind of see a tones types. So this is kind of selectively toned here and there to warm it up. And I showed my stitching here to kind of, uh, echo, you know, tail down here and really coming down the home stretch. Uh, we stayed in a, a mansion. Uh, you should take a pigs fly retreat, uh, and they have access. You get your own private chefs. These incredible cooks are it’s unbelievable, but we stay in an old Carnegie mansion that Carnegie family basically owned Cumberland for a while. And the, and they built these fantastic mansions. Most of them are, are being, let go into, into ruin photo op as these beautiful white stucco mansions, uh, become distressed.
Speaker 2 (00:36:00):
But this was a second story, uh, little room and I walked past it. And for some reason the thought occurred to me. This looks like Emily Dickinson’s bedroom. I mean, you know, I’m way off. Uh, but that’s, that’s the thought and I’m I’m sticking with it. So I began to prepare this to be Emily Dickinson’s window. She wrote all her poems while sitting at a desk. The, the thing that’s really historically not true about this picture is that there would be a desk in front of her window, but she did write all her poems on little modest scraps of paper, shoved them in her desk drawer, never expected any fame, never sought any fame. And of course, she’s, you know, one of the great poets of, of the last three centuries going back to the 19th century. So when I saw this, I scribbled down some words on small pieces of paper, crumpled, ’em up, put ’em on the floor and then just grabbed at, at this Rick treat, we all made each other a deal.
Speaker 2 (00:36:59):
We don’t have any professional models, but if you need a male model I’m, I’m in, you know, and so I grabbed a nice, uh, woman from San Francisco, uh, and Walker, uh, and I said, and you gotta do this. You know, you gotta get in, uh, a nightgown and pretend you’re Emily Dickinson. Uh, luckily there was a feather qui old pan around that kinda seal the deal that this was the 19th century. Uh, and so this became a book as well. And I, you know, I try to make use of the book format. If you’re gonna frame a physical object that has pages, then that book might actually be dropping it. There might be something letting loose showing, uh, in the underlying pages. So this is one of those little yellowed scraps of paper that could have well been what she wrote her poems on.
Speaker 2 (00:37:47):
So I looked up, I went through her poem titles and I tried to find one that would be appropriate for this picture. And lucky for me, she wrote a poem called a cloud withdrew from the sky <affirmative> thank you, photo gods and Emily. And the last little thing that I, the most recent things I’ve been doing, uh, during the pandemic, you, you know, by now that I love handmade books, but I adore artists sketchbooks, and I especially adore artists who are way the hell mortal than, and I am, I mean, what’s, what’s not to love about a de travels sketchbook from Morocco. Oh my God wa colors, you know, India, ink pens, you know, from the 19th century, his journeys, his memories, oh my God. So foolishly, uh, I’m trying to make my own artist sketchbooks. So during a pandemic, what the heck you can’t go out to eat here in California.
Speaker 2 (00:38:52):
So I open up, um, I was actually visiting your dear friend, Ann, your dear friend. I went over to Linda Connor’s house, uh, when I was director of CPA to pick up some of her artwork for a show and, and on her table, I mean, the gods, you know, uh, gave me a break on her table was a beautiful book, which I immediately purchased called, uh, the sketchbooks of the explorers. Unreal. Uh, and so I, during the pandemic, I tried things that I am not good at at all, but as other artists have said, this is a perfect time to go down those roads. You’ve been wanting to, to explore, nobody’s looking over your shoulder. This is the time to take chances. So here I am trying to, uh, imitate or, uh, or be an apprentice to a great watercolorist. This is Joshua crystal. This is my lame attempt. This is, uh, this is actually his, uh, 1807 watercolor. And, uh, this one you will never see again, this is my, uh, lame attempt.
Speaker 1 (00:39:59):
Watercolor is very challenging.
Speaker 2 (00:40:02):
So your summary, very unforgiving that’s true. This is the, the good one, you know, the real 1, 18 0 7, but you know, artists, especially painters, but we photographers do the same thing. You could say that painting is a, a huge succession of making decisions, you know, and look, and look at these decisions he had to make, you know, now here’s a guy who is loose, you know, there’s no, there was no mathematical formula on how this should be the edge of a cloud. And he could never do these clouds a second time, but he made exactly the right decision, you know, with this hand and this intuition and with decades of skill. And I just don’t have that in me. And it kills me that I don’t, but I’m a really clunky painter, but I’m willing to work. And so here I am, uh, everything from Vandyke prints to Sy type silver hand oil, hand coloring water colors.
Speaker 2 (00:41:00):
But by God, I am going to make my own sketchbooks by, by crook. And these are, um, my coyote friends in a park across the, the road from me, uh, out in Carmel valley, uh, a place called Garland park. Uh, and it has coyotes in it. And this picture was brought to you by a Carlos cast and medicinal plants <laugh> and I wanted to convey to you a scene in my mind, a scene that could have happened. Uh, and so this, this picture’s actually called cast natives friends, and, you know, it’s a fiction, but I, I took this picture printed it, watercolored it again, imperfection, uh, you gotta be open to, to chance if you’re a watercolorist. Yeah, but I did actually pains taking my draw, these coyotes in with other art media, little bit of watercolor, uh, but a lot of colored pencil in there.
Speaker 2 (00:42:04):
So when you’re born tight, you know, you’re, you tend to do these things instead of the right same thing. And that is like loose up a little bit. But anyway, so this is one of my most recent artworks, uh, cast friends. And I’ll sign off by reminding us that what goes around, comes around my old teacher, then Darren Koch from almost 45 years ago when I graduated UN UNM and got my teaching job in California, van left and 45 years ago, he had faith in this Schoolly grad student of his, and he collected some of my St types for the museum. And I haven’t seen him <laugh> in 45 years until a new curator blew the dust off of them for a show about stips from their collection. This is about, uh, oh, like, uh, in, uh, in the early part of this year, it was the show of stips from the collection.
Speaker 2 (00:43:09):
Here’s Anna Atkins. I mean that, uh, I’m thrilled to be hanging down the row from her. This is mine here are on the right, uh, done in New Mexico many moons ago. But the moral of the story is if you live long enough, you might actually be able to see your artwork dusted off and, and put on display. And I’ll leave you with, with inspiration from two great people, Henry Miller. This is probably my favorite quote, as a creative in the creative arts world. Of course we know Henry Miller as a writer, but later on, he, he took up watercolors and he said, you know, it paint as you like and die. Happy. I think that’s fantastic. I agree you, I give that to you. And in all the millions of portfolio re reviews you give and you’re sitting so patiently with people and it looks like you might have broken somebody’s heart.
Speaker 2 (00:44:05):
You know, you, you should say, it. You know, don’t listen to me, you know, <laugh> die. Happy. You know, <laugh>, I, I, I know know you’ve told people that in your own excellent way, you’re a beloved reviewer. Here’s a, this is fantastic advice from Julie market Cameron, as you know, one of the great women photographers, great, any gender photographer of the 19th century, when we are angry or depressed in our creativity, we have misplaced our power. We have allowed someone else to determine our worth. And then we are angry at being undervalued. You know, let us never give up our own confidence, our own power on momentum in our art. And then my advice make a lot of art mm-hmm and throw a lot away. <laugh>
Speaker 1 (00:45:01):
And I’ll so for
Speaker 2 (00:45:02):
It. Yeah, you gotta do it. I’m big, I’m big into crashing and burning crash and burn, crash and burn. Well,
Speaker 1 (00:45:10):
I think that’s the thing about art making is you just kind of have to go for it and do what you’re inspired to do, but then editing is huge. So
Speaker 2 (00:45:20):
You’re,
Speaker 1 (00:45:21):
You’re surrounding why not make it, but then maybe stepping back from whatever you’ve made and spending some time with it and deciding if, if that’s some you wanna keep or not, or sharing it with other friends, but why not just make it there’s and, and I’m so delighted to hear you’ve been delving into, to water colors during the pandemic, because like you said, why, why not just do that? If, if it’s of interest,
Speaker 2 (00:45:51):
Isn’t that true, you know, have courage. I mean, it’s a very painful and foreign feeling to become, uh, a child again, or a beginner, you know? Oh, sure. I’ve often thought that teachers, you know, people that are, that are, you know, dedicated professional teachers, um, should like every couple years sign up or just a community college class or just a online class or, uh, you know, a not for credit class teachers should take up something that they’re no good at to remember what their students feel like when they take a beginning photography class or beginning piano class or beginning writing class, you know?
Speaker 1 (00:46:34):
Oh yeah. I, I love that idea.
Speaker 2 (00:46:37):
We’d be much more understanding cuz uh, a bad teacher is, is an impatient teacher goes, well, well I I’ve been doing this for years. Why can’t you do this? You know? Well
Speaker 1 (00:46:46):
Sometimes you lose perspective a little bit. I have to kind of catch myself sometimes when I’m talking about the talk or other things I know about.
Speaker 2 (00:46:56):
Yeah. And in, in, you know, we’ve been talking about my gallery director experience, but you, my dear, you know, in your way, you’ve, you’ve met so many people, hundreds of people, you’ve had to talk about a lot of things, talk about what they bring to you. I’m sure you are, are humanitarian. You’re always trying to inspire people no matter what keep going you and I could be totally wrong if we didn’t like their work. You know, I tell people, listen with one ear open and one ear closed.
Speaker 1 (00:47:27):
Oh yeah. I mean just because I love your work doesn’t mean everybody else is going to or vice versa. That’s just kind of how it, how it goes generally.
Speaker 2 (00:47:38):
Yeah. Yeah. We all bring our own selves to every meeting. So
Speaker 1 (00:47:44):
You have a really interesting zoom background that you were, you were starting to tell me about. Do you wanna tell us more about your, your zoom background?
Speaker 2 (00:47:54):
Well, actually this is a living room in, in that Carnegie mansion on Cumberland. This is called Stafford Ling house and it’s still, so
Speaker 1 (00:48:03):
One of the things I like to ask a lot of my guests about as you’ve suggested is, is travel. And I must say just in the course of our conversation already, you’ve already added a few places to my list of places I wanna travel. So thank you for that. And included in that is even just, um, watching the ships, um, sale into San Francisco because that sounds amazing. I have the opportunity to visit San Francisco once a year for the past decade or so and have just always watched, loved watching the ships, um, sail around on the ocean, particularly from the art Institute, but also walking around the Wharf and, and looking at some of those, um, clip ships they have on display. I’m I I’m gonna have to figure out when that’s happening, but I, I am curious if you could travel back in time. So we’re not talking about traveling now, if you could travel back in time, is there a particular place or a time that you look click?
Speaker 2 (00:49:13):
Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Well, I’ll tell you what time travel and this, this will answer both of your good questions. I I’ve never been there and I’d love to go now, but I would really love to have gone maybe a hundred years ago. I’d love to go to anchor wa you know, or those, uh, statues are being taken back. The earth is taking back the statues by those incredible trees and plants. Now, you know, anchor wa does have a reputation for having tour buses, you know, pull up at, at sunrise and take over the place. But would’ve been a joy to be there years ago and a dear friend of mine, uh, Rick Mira, who was my assistant director at the center for photographic art leads tours. And he was, he was there just when the Pando pandemic broke out and this pandemic, I mean, if you timed it right, it was a really a risk, but if you timed it right, just, you know, at the start, uh, it would’ve been a time to, to go places that were very touristy because they weren’t there, you know?
Speaker 2 (00:50:18):
Right. We’ve kind of missed that opportunity now to get on a plane as we talk here in, uh, December in 2020, when, when there’s like more COVID cuties, uh, around than ever. But anyway, yeah, I’d love to go to anchor what I would’ve loved to go into the pyramids years ago. Um, I would’ve loved to go into stone hinge before they roped it off. Uh, I envy I envy 19th century travelers who, who, but often did damage to a place. I mean, there were the bicyclists who trash Yellowstone, you know, when bicycles were just invented in the late, uh, 1890s. And so the bicycle clubs sprung up and the, these bicyclists would take off across the landscape and break off a nice chunk of, you know, 10,000 year olds to lag tight or stalagmite. So I’m, I, uh, I, I acknowledged that it was uncool to have a picnic on top of the stone head stones, but it would’ve been pretty cool too. <laugh>
Speaker 1 (00:51:22):
I
Speaker 2 (00:51:22):
Hear you. Couple weeks ago when I was in Joshua tree, I did have the, uh, rare experience. I did come upon an old miners cabin that he built under a giant Boulder. Uh, and I was not, I am not by a long shot, the first person to discover it recently, but nobody’s quite telling anybody how to really find it in Joshua tree, but I’m telling you Anne it, the joy is, uh, walking under this Boulder into this old min cabin. It’s probably a hundred years old and everybody was, has been so respectful. All his dishes are on the shelves, rusting, rusting, rusting, uh, his, his bench is there. His stove is there. He dragged the glass window of this mountain and, and stone, you know, he put stones around this window to create a glass window. Nobody has broken his window. I mean, it’s like perfectly intact. And it, it gives you the feeling that, that, uh, it gives you the feeling of being in the 19th century when you can walk in the, to a magical place. And it’s not chain linked off, you know?
Speaker 1 (00:52:34):
Well, that’s like a little bit like time travel.
Speaker 2 (00:52:37):
Yes, yes. Its
Speaker 1 (00:52:40):
In a way yeah. In the, in the current world. So that’s, that’s
Speaker 2 (00:52:46):
So rare. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:52:49):
All, all the more reason I, I need to go to Joshua tree, which is that on the short list for so long. And, and I think that’s one of the things about these weird pandemic times is, is I, I think once the gates are open and we’re able to do that, I think I, I will be so ready to go to Joshua tree before. It was always like, although there eventually someday it will happen, but now it’s like, no, if you can go go now. Awesome. So I’m, I’m curious. Do you have any current favorite movies or, or shows you might have? I
Speaker 2 (00:53:26):
Do. I do. And you know, you’re, you’re racing a great point. You know, you, you talk about movies and series, you know, it’s amazing how we, we can’t at least in California and I, I don’t think anywhere it, our 200 people are gonna pile into a movie theater and sit next to each other right now December. Um, but movies have kind of morphed into series, you know, I mean you and I thought nothing could ever top a two hour blockbuster movie, but all many of those actors, Hugh grant and others, you know, are leaving the movies to create a seven part series, like the undoing on, uh, I think it’s HBO. That’s a good one. And of course the Queens you’ve seen and the crown and all those, uh, are
Speaker 1 (00:54:10):
Excellent. I haven’t seen those yet, but they’re on my, oh yeah,
Speaker 2 (00:54:13):
I see the undoing. That’s pretty good. That’s UN unbelievable twisty, uh, six or seven parts series. Um, but you know, in terms of a movie, I, I I’m telling you, it has become definitely on my most favorite list, top three, maybe it’s you have got to see on, I think it’s Netflix, I think, uh, or Amazon prime, one of those, uh, but you gotta see, uh, such a weird title. You gotta see my teacher,
Speaker 1 (00:54:48):
I heard that was amazing. It’s I,
Speaker 2 (00:54:51):
You know, you’ll see a preview and then you kind of think, yeah, I’ll see it someday, but I urge you to see it. It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable because there, uh, because the photography’s unreal, this guy has no scuba gear and he’s always free diving, holding his breath, going down and making friends with this amazing little octopus, you know, beyond the photographer, beyond the incredible story of kind of from start to finish of this octopus, spoiler alert, this guy is narrating it and often he’s on camera like you and I are right now, no notes. He’s just heartfelt narrating it. I mean, if, if, if, if artists are watching this and you, you wanna see somebody really talk beautifully about their art or about life, or you wanna talk about, see somebody who’s being a humanitarian and being incredibly honest, this is the guy not, not an, a, not a word out of place, perfectly relaxed, honest, incredible narration of his relationship with this octopus poetic. Unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (00:56:03):
Well, I’m definitely checking that out sooner than later, and then collecting, oh, is there anything you collect,
Speaker 2 (00:56:13):
You know, uh, you and I have friends all around us with incredible collections, like the greatest seashells, the greatest rocks, the greatest masks, you know, the greatest bird’s nest, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I mean, as you know, everything is collected toys, uh, cookie jars, you know, anima, you know, ceramic pieces. Uh, but I’m trying to simplify my life. So I don’t really have, I don’t have groups of the same thing, but, uh, to answer your question, my one sickness, uh, is, is luggage. I want a bag junkie. I have like every man’s Filsen bag that has been, ever been made, you know, field bags and, and naps acts and stuff. Uh, so I, I have too many bags and it dresses me <laugh>
Speaker 1 (00:57:05):
Well, but that’s, that’s useful. So it’s, it’s a collection that’s also functional.
Speaker 2 (00:57:12):
I I’ve often thought of lying down on a couch and paying somebody $400 an hour to explain my addiction. Uh, and if I had to offer, uh, you know, an explanation, I would say that Lu by luggage, I mean like a really cool messenger bag. You a really cool, um, backpack. Um, I think that it symbolizes, uh, taking a journey. I mean, luggage is all about going away from your home, getting out there. So it’s P possible that my addiction, you know, is not so bad, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s symbolic of me wanting to have an adventure.
Speaker 1 (00:57:53):
That makes sense. I mean, like I said, it’s, it’s yeah. Something you’re maybe a little obsessed with, but it’s got that function and it’s gonna get you back to New Mexico. You eat some green chili or, or something like that.
Speaker 2 (00:58:07):
Oh my God. We’ll go to sad. Mm-hmm <affirmative> hair catch on
Speaker 1 (00:58:10):
Fire. So good. That’s one of my favorite restaurants in Albuquerque for sure.
Speaker 2 (00:58:17):
Steve Fitch and I, and others would go there when we thought we had a new Mexican winter cold coming on, we’d go to sad and just get the extra green peppers. And just like every germ was just like leaping off of us, away from us when we started eating that.
Speaker 1 (00:58:34):
Oh, and they make the best salsa too. I actually covered the salsa before the restaurant, even I think a friend came over one day and saw the salsa in my fridge and told me, uh, did you know, there’s a restaurant in Albuquerque <laugh> and I think I went the next week because, uh, it’s so good. Yes. So good. Yeah. Speaking of New Mexico, you’ve been to burning you photographed burning man, at least a few times, if not more. And, and burning man was originally inspired by Abra, which is an event that’s happened in Santa Fe for about 90 years now, where, uh, we build this, I think it’s maybe 60 foot, uh, Maria, Annette, and he gets burnt once a year. And I’ve been told anyways, that that was what inspired burning man. And it’s kind of a different feel. I think Zo is a little more family. One night, New Mexico style and, and, and burning man usually goes on for, is it a week or, or more? I still haven’t gone to burning, man.
Speaker 2 (00:59:41):
I do hope you have a chance to go. It it’s a life experience that that will, that’s a total life experience. I’ve been maybe 10 times. And, uh, first time is UN unimaginably. Incredible. You know, you’re, you’ll be safe. Everything’s okay. There some suffering, you know, by day, you know, heat and dust storms be prepared to be completely covered in flower, so to speak, you know, the Playa dust, but that’s okay.
Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
I, I can do that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
That’s fine. Yeah. Yeah. You’ll wash up. Okay. You know, at burning man, I, I never tried to make art out there. Some people have done beautiful kind of done. I think the only great art would be documentary art, like at Dawn when, when nobody’s out there, but all the sculptures and everything are there with the sunrise and there, there have been some books and monographs done, but I, um, I’m, uh, just in so much awe over what other people have done that I never feel I can, that I can claim it as my own, you know, so I’ve never come back with anything that I would call my own art.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
And I think too, with, with things like that, sometimes it’s kind of that, um, you kind of have to make that decision. Am I here to photograph, or am I here to, to be here?
Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
That’s a very interesting, uh, you know, distinction, uh, about, uh, I mean, Zen masters tell us, you know, to be here now. And I, uh, well, I, it’s a tough subject because, uh, I was about to say that when you raise a camera to your eye and your con your concerned with aesthetic composition, you’re not being there now, cuz you’ve got something in between you and the experience. But on the other hand, you know, to defend those photographers, I am never more in the moment than when I’m photographing. And I think that it’s almost an addictive feeling in a really good way. Totally beneficial. I’m not sure every photographer is aware of it or would admit it but possible consciously or not. Does finally make us be aware of just this minute, not what I did a minute ago, not what is gonna happen a minute from now, but just this minute. And that’s, I think one of the few times in our day that we ever do that,
Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
I guess. Yeah. That’s the other side of it. But I,
Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
I think when I go to burning, man, I don’t raise a camera up too often. You know, it’s what you really wanna do is be there, right that second and really be there so that it it’s almost exte. Like, you know, I try to try to be in the moment and it’s very difficult, at least for me, super difficult to be just right here, just this minute. I mean really convincingly, but I find if you can do it, it’s almost ecstatic. It’s almost ecstasy to, to that. It’s so rare even <affirmative> when you try and meditate. I mean, I take my hat off to somebody who can not think for like five seconds without, at some thought interviewing like, wow, I’m not thinking that’s great. Oh wait. <laugh> that was a thought, you
Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Know, right. Exactly. Yo yoga is a practice that’s important to me. And I think kind of early on, on, and get to maybe the end of the practice. And then you start thinking about what you’re gonna eat for dinner or something like that. And then you go, oh, then you’re mad at yourself for ah, bring that. But you know what it’s it’s okay. I think, I think we did not be so hard on ourselves and
Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
The masters would tell you, being mad at yourself is just a thought,
Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
You know, right. If you’re going into Shabo and uh, you start thinking about car of audit.
Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Oh my God. <laugh> that’s okay. Languages like that
Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
<laugh> well, okay. Realistically, I I’ve got a, um, a crop pot car going right now. Thought That was the only reason I used that <laugh> as a specific, um, oh, that says smell good example. Yeah. If, if, um, I wish you could smell the car
Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
On a zoom feature.
Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> exactly. So these are new zoom features. I’m hoping for smell and then music,
Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Hey Anne, you’ve conducted so many interviews with so many different personalities. Your job will be choosing the soundtrack that matches that interview.
Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
That, that, that can be tricky.
Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
I’m sort of thinking for me what you’ve had to endure tonight. I would go with like the soundtrack from jaws, you know, like <laugh> like
Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
That, that’s a great soundtrack. <laugh>
Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Realizing that most of our, our audience has no idea what Johns is, but
Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Ah, God, I, I hope not <laugh> and if that’s true, we’re gonna do a whole episode on jaws. So actually, uh, speaking of music, do you tend to listen to music when you’re making in the dark
Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Room? Uh, I’ll put on music and I I’ve gone through, you know, I love your biography. Uh, and all’s, uh, mix tape on lens scratch. If you, you confess to listening to classic rock and pink Floyd, that good for you. Um, and I’m I’m with you, you know, I’ve I’ve I wore out the grooves on a CD if that’s even possible of Peter Gabriel, you know, I love Peter Gabriel, so ethereal, uh, but nowadays I’m listening to jazz. I love, I love fusion jazz and almost like acid jazz. I mean just really, you know, free form jazz. I love, uh, which would include some miles Davis and Coltrain. So listen to that without lyrics. I, uh, recently I hate to confess this. I hate to confess this as like, uh, a seemingly badass artist. <laugh> there goes my tough gangsta cred right now, but I’m telling you, I, I have, I’ve really been enjoying Taylor Swift’s new album folklore just, did you see a lot of people click off on that? <laugh> well, I
Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
I’ve never, I actually haven’t really spent a lot of time listening to her music, but I have friends that are musicians that I really admire and, and a lot of them have mentioned her name recently. Wow. That actually makes me think. I probably need to see what, what, what you guys are talking about.
Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
I know I don’t wanna well, and Taylor swift, cuz I have my reputation that upkeep hearing who wants a secret I’m the guy that watched Jimmy Hendrick’s light his guitar on fire. So I do have a reputation to uphold. Sure. But I, I, I was not a fan of Taylor swift. I would’ve never in a million years admitted ever to hearing any of hers on the radio prior to this album, but I’m telling you, you know, uh, for anybody who likes poetry or has dabble in poetry, I have got to give it up. Um, she is a good poet. Her lyrics are unbelievably smart in my opinion, mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, and the music’s good. This is a very different album. This is not filled with like pop, you know, uh, radio songs. These are very, uh, dark usually, but fantastic lyrics. So I will put her on when I’m printing and every time I listen to that album, I’ll hear something new. But your photography began way before you, you even moved to Mexico. And I thoroughly enjoyed some of the pictures that your very talented mom took of you. I think there’s one of you almost twirling. It was it at white sands or it was, uh, it seemed like sand dunes. You were twirling as
Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
The young, the, yeah, that was the sand dunes and in Colorado, which is if you’re driving from Denver to Santa Fe, um, it’s the great sand dunes. You can hit it in the middle. I think we’re actually on our way to Santa Fe when she took that picture of me.
Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
I think that is a real premonition. That that’s a very important picture that shows you, you look so confident and so strong and, and you’re still doing it, you know, but he could see it. Even at that age, we
Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Were, we were in route to, to the place that I would spend. Well, I’ve been here for 20 years. Um, but I will be here longer. So yeah. So I’m grateful. She introduced me to the medium. She was just making photographs and I thought it looked like fun. And I remember making a decision early on that. That was just something I wanted to be part of my
Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Life. When you look at her pictures, she, uh, she certainly, you can tell instantly she, she is not just some mom, those are not family snapshots that every mom took, you know, that is a committed person who was trying to make art really. And it really shows that you were a great model for her.
Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
We had, we had a lot of fun doing that. Well, and you shared a dark room with LA Joel, Peter Witkin.
Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Yeah. We were in the same, the same, uh, UN UNM grad student facility, which was called Sarah Reynolds was this old was already dilapidated when we were there. This is like 19, uh, 78, uh, the late 1970s. Uh, and it was falling apart already. I’ve been, I went back to U N M maybe 10 years ago and it’s completely bulldozed, rightly so, but in, in the day in the heyday, um, when UNM was a dynasty, uh, for grad program, that was our dilapidated dark room. And we, we all shared little dark rooms and, uh, there are many wild stories of janitors finding. I mean, Joel tells the, this great story. And one of his, his videos, uh, of printing one of his masterpieces of that man’s head, you know, it’s called the kiss. As you will know, met him director, you know, one of his most expensive ones.
Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
And he says, it’s really expensive because he printed lucky for him. He says he printed his edition, you know, of 10 or 20 that night and had ’em on the drying racks. And the janitor came in and found them and figured out this is a human being’s head. That’s been severed, you know, autopsy, um, and brought around to look like this old man is kissing another old man, a twin. Uh, and, uh, so you know, the university came down on Joel, uh, wouldn’t be the first or last time that he borrowed something from the U N M medical school. Uh, I mean, we’d all Steve and I and others, the grad students would go to the community refrigerator for a beer or something at midnight. And there’d baby feet, us, you know, in a jar in the refrigerator waiting for a Witkin still life the next day.
Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
Joel, if you ever see this interview, I love you, man. Then, you know, have the greatest respect. I mean, when, when I was in grad school, I was like 22. He was maybe 40 or so he was in a league of his own, even though he was still earning his MFA mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, he was a genius. He was arrogant. You know, he was eccentric just like he still is. Uh, but he, you know, I take my hat off to him. He, he, we were all mere mortals compared to what he was conjuring up in his dark room, for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
Well, he’s still hanging out in Albuquerque and, um, yeah, he’s, he’s got great fashion sense. I really admire his, his glasses and hats and yeah, we’ve had some book signings for him at the, at the gallery over the years. So
Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
One of the most powerful things about a WCAN photograph, uh, whether it’s a DOF or a, or a, uh, a cadaver, you know, and a still life ahead and is still life, all of these things are kind of impossible. And yet in his day he did make them happen. You know, he’d, as you know, he’d go to Mexico where they have looser laws about handling cadavers than America or France was lenient in, in lending, in body parts for still life’s. And you know, much of the power of Wilkins work is that I cannot believe what I’m seeing, but it’s for photography pre pre digital. So it’s gotta be it’s. It has to have been there. And I, and I’m really generalizing cuz there were people like Jerry Uzman and I mean from day one, people were able to manipulate in photography, you know, in the 19. But I mean, allow me to generalize, you know, when you look at a WCAN, uh, it’s, you know, it’s RA sharp and you know, that, that, you know, deceased person is really lying there with a plant, uh, still life.
Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
No, I’m pretty sure if Ansel Adams was, was around, he’d be using Photoshop don’t you think
Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
You’re darn right. PE as matter of fact, he, I think he died somewhere around 82 or 84, which is, you know, way pred, but it was, there was some digital in the air and there, there are statements by Ansel Adams saying that if I were alive into this digital age, I mean he, he acknowledged digital photography or electronic photography. He said, I would certainly be exploring it cuz you know, Ansel was always interested in state of the art technology mm-hmm <affirmative> and Hala would give him the, you know, he was so famous companies, Polaroid HAAD Nikon privilege would just give him stuff, you know? So he always got the newest technology, so you’re right. He’d Ansel would be open to it. And it’s legit,
Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
There’s that beauty to the handmade object, which I think is definitely something that inspires you and has always inspired me and not to say one thing is right or, or wrong. Just they’re they’re all tools
Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
That’s right. And you pick the right tool for the job and digital can do things that, uh, uh, old fashioned Jill and silver prince could never do. I was wondering if you were going ask me for my favorite artist, you know, and I would say it’s a kind of an ever changing list per at my imovable God. Like top of the list is, and some Keefer, you know, uh, who is a, as you know, is in the photography world and beyond. But, um, one of my current favorites is Kate Bray, you know, very well, very, very well.
Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
You have a favorite. Um, I mean she works in a lot of, of different processes. Is there like if you could, if Kate was gonna send you a gift tomorrow. Wow. I mean, is there a, an image or, um, one of her processes that you would pick colored work? The, the Giled work photograms.
Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
I might, I might, you know, uh, like so many people, I first discovered her when, through her, you know, masterful hand colored birth, uh, which I think really put her on the map and, and that’s enough for one lifetime. I mean she, Kate, uh, you know, so ma she gets my award for like the most pro prolific photographer on planet earth. Um, she had a show at your friend’s gallery, Terry Etherton down in Tucson. I think she had 140 artworks on the wall. And Terry gave her a little trophy that says wall <laugh> bow to her for, for output and, and she’s mind blowing. But I, I only mentioned her because here she is the queen of non-digital techniques, beginning, you know, oil paint on gelt and silver prints, flowers, birds put her on the international map, but then she started doing things, uh, that needed digital of technology. You know, I mean, I, if I were gonna have a gift from her, I might go with her, uh, trail cam pictures of coyotes and things. She sets, she must live in a wild neighborhood down in Tucson or somewhere. Yeah. Um, but she set up a trail cam she’s just got Halina and coyotes and Bobcats coming up and sniffing her trail cam. But I mean, that’s, that’s digital, you know, you, so she, she chose the right tool.
Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Exactly. That wouldn’t obviously, for example, a pinhole camera would not have worked. <laugh> The, would’ve been something very different, but that’s actually one of my major pet peeves is when I hear people, um, look at a piece of artwork and say, what is that Photoshop? That makes me crazy. I feel like it’s like saying, is this a hammer? Yes. The piece of artwork is not the artist used Photoshop to achieve those results, but not, no, that is not software. It doesn’t just make itself.
Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Um, and that’s a great, uh, succinct explanation. It’s not software. It might, might be, there might be electricity involved, you know, somewhere in a monitor or something, but it’s not software, you
Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
Know? No, no, the computer did not make that piece of art for that person. Um, I ideas and, and, and skill,
Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Uh, you know, I still happily have my own dark room and I love going in my dark room where there are only like, uh, 10 major decisions and pitfalls and disasters and treacherous things that could go wrong. Like my en larger bulb might blow, you know, or my developer might be exhausted or something versus the digital world, you know, where like, there’s about a well in Photoshop, there’s 12 ways of doing everything 12 different ways to do everything 12 different ways. Oh yeah. And then, then your printer is green. All of a sudden, I mean, I have, I have the worst luck in the world with digital photography. People will tell you that I can stand next to your computer and I could crash it, just standing next to it. I hit you not. So, I mean, if I’m gonna make a digital print, I’ll come up to my, my workstation and I’ll hit print. And like the commuter will, the, the print will die or it will refuse to print that’s me. That’s definitely me. I’m just underscoring your point. The digital is not at all easier.
Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
No. Yeah. Some people think a print, a digital print, they just hit print. Oh,
Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
They’ve never tried to make a glistening, uh, digital print the way people you represent.
Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
Well, Brian, I feel like we could probably talk for the next 10 hours or so
Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
We’ll covered it. Burning men <laugh> all night a 12 hour conversation,
Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
But I should, I should go tend to, to my carne Nevada that I’m hop. Um, but, but I’m sure I’ll talk to you again soon. And, um, we really appreciate everybody. Who’s who’s listening. This is still a pretty new show. If you could like comment and subscribe, that’s really helpful to keep the conversation going. And thank you, Brian
Speaker 2 (01:19:20):
And Kelly. I sincerely thank you, uh, too, for what you’re doing. And, uh, you’re amazing in many different fields and I like you. I think anybody you’ve made it this far, I think you should take up gun printing because you too are, go out for freshmen. <laugh>
Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
Well, thank you, Brian. No, it’s been really fun. Um, and actually I’m just gonna toss in. Um, last time we got to see each other in the real world was in, in, um, California. And I think we had kind of talked about, we would see each other somewhere again soon. And I think we said either New Mexico, California, or somewhere else, but I don’t think we ever thought it would be when you were in California. And I was in New Mexico, but
Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
Before zoom was ever
Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
Invented, real life is better. But, um, this, this allows us to, to connect. So that’s really cool.
Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
Well, thank you and, and keep up the good work and you’re doing
Speaker 1 (01:20:17):
Great. Well, thank you, you too. And, and we’ll talk soon and, um, have a good night.
Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
Thank you. And good luck to everyone else too, in their, in life and health and creativity,
Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Absolutely stay inspired.
