Anne Kelly  (00:00:12):

Hello, and welcome to episode 21 of Art in the Raw. This episode is going to be a little different. We’re doing a social hour this time. What does that mean? We’ve invited four guests back from previous episodes, and I think it’s going to be a lot of fun. What’s going to happen even I don’t know. So you’re going to have to watch to find out. We do have a bit of a plan. We have two guests who are photographers, two guests who are musicians, and two guests to have a lot of knowledge about copyright in the arts, both in visual arts, as well as music. So it’s, it’s going to be a fun conversation and we’re all going to learn a lot as well. If this is your first time watching, definitely go back and check out episodes one through 20. But in the meantime, welcome to Art in the Raw social hour.

Anne Kelly  (00:01:08):

I’m your host Anne Kelly. If this is our first time meeting, you might be also wondering who I am. In a nutshell, I’m someone that has been fascinated with art and music pretty much my entire life, 20 years ago, probably a little longer. I moved to Santa Fe New Mexico to go to art school and further immerse myself in the arts. I’ve now been working in the professional gallery world for about 15 years now. And I started Art in the Raw about halfway through 2020. If you’d like to know more in the description, you can find an interview with me that I did with Len scratch, but enough about me. I am excited to introduce my guests to each other and to you as well. So thanks so much for watching really appreciate it. Do me a solid and like comment and subscribe. Keep the inspiration going welcome everybody. I’m going to have everybody introduce themselves. Let’s start with Zach. Welcome Zach. Thank you.

Zach Wiles  (00:02:12):

Yeah, my name is Zach wilds. I do a copyright for universal in LA. I also DJ under the name Veda and we run a radio show me and a bunch of people on dash radio, uh, called tastemakers. So yeah, I work in music. Thanks for having me back out Anne

Anne Kelly  (00:02:33):

Thanks for coming back, Zach. So Zach was on episode two, welcome Talia.

Talia Kosh  (00:02:39):

Thanks for having me back. And I am an attorney in Santa Fe. I grew up here, went away for 10 years for school and then came back. There was no New Mexico lawyers for the arts. So I went on the path of creating that. And what it did is allowed me to really figure out how to stay, um, in the realm of working with artists and filmmakers. I’ve been working with Natalie since 2016 as one of their outside counsel. Um, yeah, so musician attorney photography.

Anne Kelly  (00:03:09):

And you are also a singer songwriter, kick ukulele and guitar player. And you’re working on, there’s an album in the process.

Talia Kosh  (00:03:20):

I have to figure out all the CD baby stuff. That’s kind of where my gaps are, is on that technology side or just like completing the album work and all of that. So I tend to be a perfectionist, but all the music is ready to go.

Anne Kelly  (00:03:34):

Excellent. Well, thanks for coming back on episode one. Yeah. And a few others

Michael Kirchoff (00:03:43):

Made guest appearances on June two others. So yeah, this is technically my fourth appearance on art in the raw. I feel very honored to be here again. Thanks for having me Anne.

Anne Kelly  (00:03:54):

Thank you. And tell the, tell the people who you are in case they haven’t seen the,

Michael Kirchoff (00:03:58):

Oh, my name is Michael Kirchoff and I am a commercial and fine art photographer. And I also, I write and edit for analog forever magazine, uh, which is an online and print publication based upon using analog and methods, historical alternative processes in photography. And then I started a site called catalyst interviews where I interview photographers about their creative process. And then I have an online column at one 12 publishing called traverse, which is basically the same thing I do for the other two entities only traverse I’m writing about photographers who work in reside outside of the United States to kind of examine the, the common thread that we have crossing borders and all of those things keep me very busy.

Anne Kelly  (00:04:49):

Thanks for coming back and Daniel portrait and documentary photographer out of LA area from Canada. Well, thank you for joining. Thank you for having us. So to give everybody watching a little background, I had assigned everybody with the task of coming up with at least one question for everybody else, whether it be the same question or unique questions, but I’m just gonna throw up a few little parallels right now, Daniel and Michael and Taulia are all into photography. So that’s something the three of you have in common and then Zach and Taulia, you’ve got the music thing between Talia and Zach. There’s a wealth of knowledge just regarding kind of the legal and copyright part of it as well, which is a lot more interesting than, than most people would think. And thank you everybody for being here. Most of us are in California right now with the exception of Talia. And I maybe, maybe sometime in the future we’ll road trip down and we’ll all have a party maybe on the beach or something. Can we come to you instead? I I’ve worked for

Michael Kirchoff (00:05:59):

That. Okay.

Anne Kelly  (00:06:06):

It sounds good to me. I’m all for

Zach Wiles  (00:06:09):

Just run out 10,000 waves or something, man.

Anne Kelly  (00:06:13):

And, oh, that’s another parallel I should mention. Zach is also involved in a radio show where he does some interviews with different DJs. So just throwing out some of the reasons I thought this would be a fun group.

Michael Kirchoff (00:06:29):

That’s interesting. Well, I’ve been interviewing, like I said, photographers about their creative process. Is it basically the same kind of idea, but from, from a DJ and music standpoint?

Zach Wiles  (00:06:38):

Yeah, but there’s a radio station based out of LA called dash radio, like a satellite based radio. So they have a studio in Hollywood. It’s basically like a music and lifestyle kind of thing. So there’s five or six of us that would do it. And so we’d just get, you know, different, uh, DJs from mostly the electronic music world between like house techno drum and bass, all that kind of stuff. And, uh, bring them into the studio, have an interview. They’d bring a couple songs because generally they’re producers also. So they’d play a couple of their forthcoming tracks and then they would, and then they would usually do like a DeJ mix in the studio that started even before me, people I work with have been doing it for probably about five years. And then about three years ago, I came on a year after that we started a subs show called the rewind, which is all kind of like bass music, focus, drum and bass dubstep. And so that’s something that I host, we’ll bring artists in and we’ll give them an interview and not this year, but in years past, we would take the show on the road and go to music festivals and interview artists at music festivals,

Michael Kirchoff (00:07:46):

Especially now during COVID times, it keeps you connected to not just the industry, but the people who are driving.

Zach Wiles  (00:07:53):

You know, the reason I do it because I’ve been a DJ for years, did it more full-time when I was younger. And then the older you get, the less that, you know, you want to be at a club every night until four in the morning. And so I was like, I need a job that has health insurance and stuff. So I went back to school, finished the music degree. And so now I have a day job still in music, but you know, that’s what I do for, for the income now. And so the reason I do the radio, so now is just because that’s where I came from. I genuinely, I genuinely enjoy the music and just like to connect with the community and, and it has been great. And COVID like this, you know, we’ve done a bunch of radio show episodes where we’ve done it, interviews over zoom and people will record their DJ mix at home and we’ll play it on the show. And it’s been great to have during this time.

Michael Kirchoff (00:08:44):

And that’s, what’s interesting. You mentioned community. I mean, that is essentially while we’re why we’re all together now is because Ann has kind of built this YouTube channel is in our own interest of community and finding out about the art world and the different aspects. You know, like you, you said you work in, you have a day job and there’s still involves the music industry, but more in terms of the things like copyright. And I know that Talia as well. So it’s the same sort of thing. It’s nice that I have this resource available during a time like this. Right.

Anne Kelly  (00:09:14):

And keeping me inspired. So that was my purpose, but it’s also been, been great for me as well. And, and Daniel, you’ve done at least one interview from, from your closet. And we talk about that.

Daniel Goncalves  (00:09:26):

It wasn’t quite an interview. It was just, um, someone working on this documentary project and they wanted to kind of experience with video and the video portraits, and they want it to get some voiceover. So I had my friend who was a bullfighter come and do recordings in the closet

Anne Kelly  (00:09:44):

Interview. But yeah, You have a bullfighter in your closet with the intention. I haven’t heard anybody else say that anybody else,

Talia Kosh  (00:09:59):

Well, maybe, and maybe in, can put a picture of this up, but I was looking at your website and it looks like the, you have a photo of the bullfighter and it looks like the, the universe and the Milky Way behind them. Is that what the inside of your closet looks like?

Daniel Goncalves  (00:10:16):

I think, you know, I can see my bow tie in the background through,

Anne Kelly  (00:10:22):

I haven’t actually seen that particular picture is that, is that

Daniel Goncalves  (00:10:25):

Actually bikes, there were all these insects, but the way it looked with the light behind, it just looks kind of cool.

Talia Kosh  (00:10:31):

I like my story better.

Anne Kelly  (00:10:36):

So we’ve prepared some questions for each other. Talia, do you have a question for Michael,

Talia Kosh  (00:10:45):

Just saying the names of your, your brand’s catalyst interviews and traverse, um, then you mentioned crossing borders and like, thinking about these points of crossing and these, this nexus point that you seem to be so fascinated with. Like, can you talk about that a little bit?

Michael Kirchoff (00:11:05):

Those are probably very subliminal clues that I could probably spend some time on a therapist’s couch talking about as well. Um, but you’re right. I suppose you’re right though. I mean, you’re talking about crossing borders and like you mentioned, traverse, I mean, that was the whole idea behind that column is one of the things that I like to do on my own. And as a, and as a photographer has traveled, I’m always interested in other cultures and in specifically how photography operates and it’s done in other countries, how different people understand it and participate in it. It definitely makes sense beyond that. And maybe a little bit deeper is the fact that I think as I’ve gotten older, I’ve realized that I feel the need to kind of branch out. You know, I’ve been doing photography for a really long time, and while I never really intended to be a writer, I find it to be a very satisfying endeavor.

Michael Kirchoff (00:11:58):

But most of the time, sometimes it’s very difficult. And I’ve heard this from other writers too, that isn’t necessarily writer’s block. It’s just, sometimes it’s just tough to get started on something. It’s a learning process for me as well. The whole idea behind interviews is, was that I wanted to learn more about what other people were doing. And I think that in the long run, that helps me as an artist. Um, and certainly as a writer to be able to, to come to a better understanding of how people do things, especially creatively, I kind of come to this kind of crossroads in my life where I fade specific choices in order to, in a way, take a different path. It’s a similar path, but it’s, but it’s different enough to pose more of a challenge to me then, uh, then I had been participating in before.

Michael Kirchoff (00:12:43):

Um, cause there was even a point in time where I was shooting so much commercially that I got really burned out and I was actually going to quit photography altogether. I had kind of had it and I realized it wasn’t, it was just the type of work that I was doing during that time. I was also doing some traveling and taking a lot of personal work. So that personal work that I was doing is what inevitably branched me out into doing fine art photography as well. So I’ve never felt like I’ve really had a firm grasp on what it is that I do day to day or in life in general. I, um, I always kind of drift from one place to another over time, but somehow I always kind of landed at my feet along the way. It’s all tied together. It’s all based upon my curiosities and interest in what other people are doing. If that answers your question.

Talia Kosh  (00:13:33):

I love that. Thank you. So, Michael, what do you have for,

Michael Kirchoff (00:13:38):

I was, I had watched your art and raw episode the other day, and you were talking about the singer songwriter aspect of what it is that you do. You not just play guitar, but you also play ukulele. And you had said that you found that ukulele to be a good instrument to compose songs on. And I I’ve never heard that before. I, how was, how was composing on a ukulele, the benefit to songwriter,

Talia Kosh  (00:14:07):

But you picked that out. That’s a very good question. I think that it’s ease of access, right? Like it goes anywhere. It’s very small. It fits in the overhead compartment of any airplane. You can take a traveling with you. Um, but the instrument itself, you know, it’s four strings. It’s not six. It’s just very accessible for budding musicians, for people that are interested in music. It’s a good instrument into music because initially the, the guitar can feel kind of daunting. I, I would say, especially, I mean, this sounds a little like sexist, but especially for women, I feel like, you know, to wrap it as a small, as a young woman to wrap your hands around a guitar, it’s like hard, but like the ukuleles very accessible, it’s just easier to play for a smaller hands. Um, so there’s that too. That’s probably related to the size of, of, of hands. It’s just easy to pick up. It’s, there’s nothing serious about that instrument. It’s a very playful instrument. It invites creativity and, and things just kind of come out that way.

Michael Kirchoff (00:15:18):

So it’s more than just one tiny, tiny template. Okay.

Talia Kosh  (00:15:21):

Right. And then it’s addictive because I actually talked about this on the show, but yeah, I have multiple ukuleles and it’s hard to stop buying them.

Michael Kirchoff (00:15:31):

Uh, I have a friend who he got into buying guitars and then eventually it got into buying ukuleles. And I had actually been to a ukulele, I guess festival might say we were on a job together in Hawaii. And I mean, they’re all works of art on their own. I mean, there was some amazing instruments out there. Like there are with guitars.

Talia Kosh  (00:15:52):

Yeah. I mean, I had to wait for a year each for two of the, the ukuleles I have, there was a year waiting

Michael Kirchoff (00:16:00):

Lists,

Talia Kosh  (00:16:03):

Specific, uh, artisans that make that’s cool. Thank you for that question. That was from,

Anne Kelly  (00:16:09):

We got to get some ukulele artisans on the show. If anybody knows any, let me know.

Daniel Goncalves  (00:16:15):

I have to, like you said, they’re addictive. I, I bought a guitar once and it just sat in the closet. It was just too intimidating. Like you said, I guess I have small hands. Maybe. I don’t know, I’m going to hurt your fingers. Right? The little metal strings and like, man, and then I went to Hawaii and I was always interested in that. I was talking to Anna about the interested in the ukulele and where it came from. And then, um, bought one, like we came back and just kind of stuck in my head. I really wanted to try to figure it out. Pretty soon I had three and then went back down to two, but I still don’t know how to play it. I was still working through it. But, uh, but you’re right. It’s kind of fun just to kind of mess around with it and just kind of creative little outlet, sometimes like a little didgeridoo

Talia Kosh  (00:17:00):

For everyone. Yes.

Anne Kelly  (00:17:03):

I’ve been tempted. And that was a fun connection that we kind of made as well. Daniel’s Portuguese Canadian. You grew up in Canada, but your parents grew up in Portugal. The ukulele was result of Portuguese sailors, landing and Hawaii basically appropriating that instrument. And it became a thing in Hawaii. And one day Daniel had introduced me to Portuguese blues. And I think that was around the time that I was recording the episode with Talia. And so, I don’t know. There’s all these fun little, yeah. Rabbit holes, connections. I love it. Do you have any ukuleles in the room? Daniel?

Daniel Goncalves  (00:17:49):

I’m not wearing pants. I apologize. I’m just kidding.

Michael Kirchoff (00:17:52):

It’s hot in LA. You don’t need to wear pants

Daniel Goncalves  (00:17:54):

Today. Yeah, no, that’s why I’m not wearing them. I think that’s a soprano. What’s the littlest one. What are they called? Like soprano, whatever the biggest one, the concert or 10 or whatever it’s called. Definitely your fancy ones, but I don’t know the kind of fun.

Anne Kelly  (00:18:11):

Good. And it’s all about how they sound anyway. So Talia, do you have any advice for Daniel on learning to play his ukulele? Just YouTube tutorials, YouTube shadows, the YouTube. And you’ve got some piano background.

Zach Wiles  (00:18:31):

I do. It’s funny. I actually do own, um, my, my girlfriend, who’s from coincidentally. She’s from Hawaii and she’s in earshot and she’ll give me a dirty look unless I say bouquet Laylay I actually do own one of those too, but I never learned how to play it either. And it was back when I was in music school and that’s the reason I know how to play piano because I had to, uh, learn an instrument to graduate. And I knew I didn’t have the patience to learn guitar picked up piano and it actually ended up being really fun. And an, even to the point where I questioned myself, I was like, God, God, you know, like I’m an old rave kid and a vinyl DJ and all this. And I’ve, you know, moved to three or four different places across the country. And I’d just bring like 20 crates of records and they’re so heavy.

Zach Wiles  (00:19:22):

And I’m just like, man, if I just started playing piano, when I was a young kid, how to just have this one piano and I could just like move with that. And I wouldn’t have this huge burdensome. I mean, I love my vinyl, but oh my God, every time I move, I’m just like, why did I pick this addiction and habit? I guess that’s a roundabout way of saying yes, I do play piano. I haven’t played piano very much since I’ve graduated. So I couldn’t really call myself a player, but, uh, I do really enjoy playing it. I got really into the jazz, like the old school kind of jazz that you play out of like the real book and kind of, you know, you do a little improvising little that duke Ellington era type stuff. Just music in general is a lot of fun.

Zach Wiles  (00:20:01):

I guess this might be another art form or whatever, but there’s this really, it might still be on Netflix. I’m not sure, but there’s a documentary about the people who make Steinway pianos. They’re like one of the last hand-built pianos out there. They like carve everything by hand and they have to mold everything. And it’s a, it’s a huge process. And at the end of it, you understand why a Steinway piano costs that much money. It it’s a very complicated instrument. I played on a Steinway once and it did sound amazing, but I’m not buying one anytime soon I have my Casio weighted key Privia keyboard.

Michael Kirchoff (00:20:38):

I think it’s interesting that you had said that when you had to pick up a music, musical instrument to play in order to graduate, that you thought the piano was intimidating than I could talk, because it seems to me like a piano that seems to me that this also goes back to the comment or the question that I had for Talia about composing clearly like the piano seems like the ultimate in terms of complications and in composing music on something like that seems more to more serious.

Zach Wiles  (00:21:08):

Yeah. I guess, I guess you’re right. One person sees it one way and one person can definitely see it another way for sure. I feel like maybe I just, cause I, I feel like I tried to play guitar and this will date me, you know, like back when I was like in high school and I’m trying to play like zero by smashing pumpkins or something on like the guitar and like, I’m just like, oh my God, my hands hurt. And this is so complicated. And you know, like maybe it was just like that kind of memory. And then I was just like, oh, piano. I don’t know. I’ve played chopsticks before.

Zach Wiles  (00:21:40):

And then piano is hella hard. So yeah. So they’re both hard. It’s just, I have maximum respect for actual players. I’ve found out very quickly at music school. It’s different than being in history class. Cause history class. You’re like, oh man, I have an exam tomorrow. Let me just stay up all night with a bunch of red bull and just like memorize a bunch of facts and pass this test. But like with like an instrument can’t just cram in a day to actually be able to learn a piece, you have to sit there and you have to put time and energy and you can’t. A music test really is really what it comes down to. It’s a commitment. Yeah, definitely. So maximum respect to people who actually play every day and to people like you Talia that actually song. Right? Because I had to take some song writing classes in school and I thought that was going to be easy and not actually by far ended up being one of the hardest classes I ever took. Just having to actually figure out chord progressions and you know, lyrics and be happy with it.

Talia Kosh  (00:22:35):

Maybe it’s the, and be happy with it part. Yeah,

Anne Kelly  (00:22:39):

We are all always our hardest critics, right. When the album is ready, if we’re still in pandemic world, do you have a digital plan to promote it like a digital format to get it out there?

Talia Kosh  (00:22:55):

Yes. Um, and actually this dovetails with, uh, the question that I was going to ask Zach row it all together, but you know, one of the, kind of the things that’s happening now, that’s obvious to everyone is the death of the album in some ways, because it’s all singles now. Right? So then the question becomes, you know, as my first album, do I want to put out an album or any AP or just a single as is everyone else right now? And for me, I feel like these four songs really belong together. It’s good on an EAP. So I’ll do that. And then I’ll release singles as I move forward. Um, and so Zach, that was kind of my question for you knowing about your musical background and professional experiences is like, what do you think about the death of the

Zach Wiles  (00:23:45):

Album? That is a very large question, but ultimately it’s, it’s, it’s neither good nor bad. Really. It’s just kind of is the way it is. Cause I mean the album, all right, I’m going to try to keep this very short.

Zach Wiles  (00:24:05):

Well, like, you know, the album was invented by, by music companies and it, and it was dictated by the technology of the time music when it first started to actually be put on something other than one of those player pianos or, you know, the old Victrolas wouldn’t when music first started actually being put on disc and sold. That is like the birth of like the recorded music industry, you know, before that music was just on sheet paper and you had to like actually hire bands and, or, you know, like the guy in the saloon to play music or something like that. You know, when, when music first started getting put on disc, it was like on 70 eights and they’re huge disks. And they were really brittle. You could fit like a, you know, a couple tunes on each side. And when they started marketing and selling this stuff, they would sell an app, sell a desk and people would buy one desk and another desk and another desk.

Zach Wiles  (00:24:53):

And then they would put it in these like jackets that the music industry sold them. And so like then they called them, you know, music albums basically. And then from there technology started getting better and you could have, you know, long player vinyl and stuff like that. They were able to put one disc in a, in a sleeve. And then like there, there is an album, the music industry where they’re the ones who have always held all the keys. And so like this system for them worked great. If you think about any tune from the eighties, it’s like, man, I really like, you know, I need you tonight on NXS that album, all the rest of the album is kind of crap. But like if you wanted that song, you had to buy that album. That was great for them. It wasn’t necessarily like good or bad for anybody else.

Zach Wiles  (00:25:35):

But now with digital it’s like that, that whole thing went away really at the end of the day, uh, the end of the album is not really the end of the world for the musician. And really the, the great thing about the end of the album is it’s leveled the playing field and given all the keys of the kingdom and the driver’s seat or whatever you want to call it, like back to the artists, you can do whatever you want. You can release an album, you can just release singles. You could just release three or four tunes. You could release the two and every week you could, you could do it exclusively on streaming. You could do as part of a video. Yeah. So you have so many things that you want to do. And now the question is like, how did, how do we make money off that? He’s an artist. And I think with everybody in this chat that that’s kind of the burning question of like the last 10 years. And that’s kinda my question for every, for all of you all twos, which we’ll get to, but hopefully that, that, I mean, does that answer anything?

Talia Kosh  (00:26:28):

Yeah. I love that perspective of the death of the album is like the liberation of the indie artist. Um, and I can see that financially too. Right. I love that. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I guess I remember

Michael Kirchoff (00:26:43):

Buying single cassette tapes in, uh, in Los Angeles when I was growing up, there was a record store, not far from my house in, it was in Pasadena, it was called Moby disc records. And they used to bring in all of these import albums from all over the world, they would have unique single pressings of a lot of the bands that I liked when a bandwidth issue was single, they would put it on the vinyl and then there would be a B side that you wouldn’t show up anywhere else. It was never on the actual album. So it was a chance to get something kind of unique. The sleeve that it was in was unique artwork as well. The flip side was the B side and you could have something that nobody else has. And I still have a lot of those disks that have music that hasn’t, hasn’t really been issued anywhere else. So it becomes kind of a rarity. I don’t, it wouldn’t be a full-size vinyl disc, but it was only one song. Sometimes it would be two, but usually just one song on each side. And the quality was always very good. The more grooves that are on a vinyl album, the lower the quality gets. So if you can fill up a side with one song, it’s going to have a, probably a better, better sound quality to it.

Zach Wiles  (00:27:58):

Yeah. They discovered that by accident to the 12 inch singles, like you’re you were talking about, you know, that it was, I mean, a lot of that’s owed to the beginning of like deejaying and stuff like that actually is, there’s a great book called last night, a DJ saved my life and then, you know, they used to press all the singles on the, on those seven inches on the 40 fives. And you know, this guy, Tom Moulton, I think his name was, he wanted to press this single, but they were all out of 45 blanks. And so they were just like, all right, well, we have all the LP blanks. Let’s just use one of those and see what it sounds like. And with all the grooves spread out the quality of the music, the fidelity or whatever it’s called, just like went through the roof. That was kind of the, the birth of 12 inch singles, I guess. Anyway, that’s just my little nerdy factoid dovetailing off what you were saying.

Michael Kirchoff (00:28:47):

And a lot of artists, a lot of artists at that time, I think I’d kind of benefited them as well because they were known they were, they would issue singles. They wouldn’t normally do just so that they could offer something else to their fan base. And a lot of, a lot of, especially a lot of bands that didn’t get a lot of airplay on the radio in order to be able to do something like that to offer to their fans in term, you know, obviously they’re making money off of it, which is great. They’re going to disappear. They’re making money off of it. So it had benefit in terms of promotion.

Zach Wiles  (00:29:20):

Yeah, definitely. And I guess Tali it really to more succinctly answer your question as you, what you should do is how you should release to look at it either from an artistic perspective of like, if, how you feel like it should be released. And then that’s the way I would go. The monetary thing. Obviously we all need to make money what we do, but making money off the recording is, has become vastly more complicated.

Talia Kosh  (00:29:45):

Well, and I think that we’ve like reverted back to the song and maybe this, this kind of dovetails with, um, you know, like how we can do whatever we want with our music and release it however we want, but, okay. So there’s a devaluation. If we go back to kind of like the Sarah the seventies and before, when it was more that the song was a marketing tool and that you use to get people to know about your music and then the money comes in March and live shows and touring, you know, those kinds of things, or, you know, maybe even sync licensing, you know, then, then it makes sense again.

Zach Wiles  (00:30:28):

Yeah. And I think that’s actually where a lot of the money nowadays is being made, especially for an indie artist, uh, between, I guess not so much this year, but definitely, uh, live touring and merchandise and doing the physical sales with like the link thing. I see that a lot, some sort of Merch mixed with a cassette tape or whatever, oddly enough, people are buying cassettes still. And I just got an email that from work saying that vinyl actually outsold, CDs, this, this quarter, like what’s the music business like now? Well, it’s like this, what will it be like in three months? It’ll probably be different. It’s just, is just kind of the way it’s been for like the last couple of

Talia Kosh  (00:31:07):

Years I would love to do as small press a vinyl.

Zach Wiles  (00:31:10):

There are people who are doing it, especially in the electronic music world. They’re still doing vinyl. Vinyl is still very much alive, but the DJ culture,

Anne Kelly  (00:31:17):

I vote for the 12 inch single.

Talia Kosh  (00:31:21):

Oh, well maybe I’ll have to just think about that now. Okay.

Anne Kelly  (00:31:24):

Yeah. But the three songs on the other side. Yeah. Best of both worlds. That’s a crazy thing with music, how they’ve just started compressing it over the years and people who have grown up in the era of compressed music, we don’t even really know the difference.

Zach Wiles  (00:31:42):

That’s another gigantic question. Do MP3s and waves actually sound that different. They do, I guess on paper and you can hear it in a club. If you’re deejaying a wave in an MP3, there is a little bit of loudness differences, scientifically like all those frequencies in a wave that are there, like the ear can’t even really hear them. Anyway. I don’t know. The DJ test is like, does it make you dance? If it makes you dance? Okay, great, good.

Anne Kelly  (00:32:17):

Do we, do we dance after recording this episode? That’s how we know it was successful.

Zach Wiles  (00:32:23):

Why wait till

Anne Kelly  (00:32:23):

After? Yeah. Um, I don’t have a lot of, I’ve had a bunch of snowboards behind me, so it’d be maybe a snowboard that breaks into two and like James Bond pipe. I do. I’ve heard

Zach Wiles  (00:32:39):

Of it, but I haven’t really seen one before. That’s an actual thing. I thought you were making a joke.

Anne Kelly  (00:32:47):

I’m hitting the fan. I don’t know if you can really see it, but Splits in half, shout out how their Pritchard for selling this to me. So it turns into skis. So you can put skins on the bottom cross country up. Basically,

Anne Kelly  (00:33:10):

If you can see, like you can switch the bindings from ski to the snowboard mode as you’re going up. Same boots. Yeah. That’s the beauty part of it. Tell ya, for example, has some skis that was skins and she can just skin up and I’d be with friends like her before I had this board. And before I would be carrying my snowboard on my back up the mountain. So now, now I can skin up with the, with the other skiers. Yeah. And I actually grew up skiing. So the first time I was doing it, I was like, wow. I feel like I’m on skis again. And I don’t, I don’t think it would be safe to ski on that

Michael Kirchoff (00:33:54):

Skiing or snowboarding.

Anne Kelly  (00:33:55):

I don’t know. I actually haven’t skied since I was about nine years old, but I started skiing when I was three. So I’ve been snowboarding much longer than that. And I love snowboarding and I have all the stuff. So there’s that. I am curious though, what would happen if I put on, put on skis

Michael Kirchoff (00:34:15):

For an episode,

Anne Kelly  (00:34:17):

I have threatened to record an episode. I think up the mountain. What do you think Talia we skin up and talk about. Great. Has, um, the GoPro that we can use. Yeah, let’s do it. That could happen. Just combine all the things that we love into one, one episode. So our friend Lisa is a bagpipe player and she is known to snowboard down the mountain on the last day with the bagpipes. So good call. I think you definitely have to do an episode with Lisa and her bag pipes and Talia. You’ll bring the ukulele and Greg could bring any musical instrument to,

Zach Wiles  (00:34:58):

I suppose, for all three of you, because you all work in the photography area. I started out as a vinyl DJ and I have lots of records. So I’ve touched on this. Everything’s very digital. Now a similar trend that’s happened in film too, right? Vinyl still exists, but obviously film still exists to some degree. Whereas film now in the world of photography,

Michael Kirchoff (00:35:18):

Also a very big question. I mean, we started analog forever magazine because of our love. When I say our, um, myself and a guy named Michael [inaudible], who was basically my partner in, in creating the magazine. Um, and then we have a couple of other people that are on our team who also do photography in an analog fashion. It was the love of using these analog processes that drove us to investigate what other people are doing with it as well and publish it online. And in print, uh, in recent years, we’ve actually seen a huge amount of growth in the film photography industry. A lot of it actually has to do with the fact that digital has helped it along the way. I had a conversation with Melanie Bostic who was in Santa Fe, she’s one half of Bostik and Sullivan, and they provide chemistry and supplies for people who do what most people refer to as alternative processes, but are actually historical processes, photographic processes that were started in like the 18 hundreds, 19 hundreds.

Michael Kirchoff (00:36:24):

And when the rise of digital took place, their business model started to fail people. Weren’t interested in doing that anymore. They were all, everybody was moving into digital and it wasn’t until there was a way to create what we now refer to as a digital negative. But basically you can take a digital photograph and print out a negative with a digital printer that you can now contact, print, or print through an enlarger, or do any number of things with an analog or historical process way. And when that happened, their business shot through the roof and now they sell more than they ever had before in their lives. So digital has helped prop up the analog industry. And now through the things that I’ve been seeing and doing analog forever, both in, and honestly my own work as well, there are more quote unquote hybrid creative processes.

Michael Kirchoff (00:37:22):

Now that are going on in photography. There are very few people who are true purists who will shoot like an eight by 10 or 11 by 14 camera and take that PR process that negative and in chemistry, and then make either enlargements or contact prints from that negative with it’s where it’s just pure analog processes. Everything is chemical and physical and nothing exists in a digital space whatsoever until somebody takes a picture of it and puts it on Instagram. That is a very small part of it now, but I honestly, and I’m taking up like all of this all of the time in talking about this, but I actually see to the future of photography as an analog medium, I think that digital photography will start to disappear. And when I say digital photography, I mean the point and shoot cameras, the, the phone, the cameras, even in your phone, I think that over time, those will begin to disappear because photographs for advertising, editorial and corporate use are all going to be created with artificial intelligence.

Michael Kirchoff (00:38:37):

We’re already seeing that like every photograph you see, every billboard, every magazine cover, all of those photographs have been digitally manipulated in some way. And most of them are composites of more than one image. So I think, I think that as progress continues to move forward in the industry, that’s essentially where things are going to go and it’ll start to be, it’ll be a slow decline, but I think it’s a decline that potentially is going to happen. And in order to be creative in photography, I think you’re going to need to be, you embrace a hybrid approach or an analog approach. And I could go on talking about,

Anne Kelly  (00:39:19):

Okay, somebody as usual, I can’t help myself or those Ilford boxes behind you, Michael, on the top of the, I can’t even read that. I just know what an Ilford box are. Those are those boxes full of unexposed paper, or are there prints in those spots?

Michael Kirchoff (00:39:37):

Those are full of proof sheets. I’ve been going through the last, I would say 12 years. Part of my flat file drawers were filled with work in progress projects, original Polaroid prints and Polaroid negatives, and other film, negatives and prints that I have made over the last I was approximately 12 years. And they started to accumulate to the point where they were spilling over into each other and they were all getting mixed up. So I decided to take the, my COVID time and organize all of it. I’m about 90% done with it all. There’s a few loose ends, but, um, yeah, all of these, these envelopes are full everything here. This is another stat that you can’t see. There are boxes that are filled, filled with negatives in France. I actually had to order more boxes because they didn’t have, there are literally thousands of Polaroid prints and negatives, um, surrounding me that right now, uh, that I spent the past three weeks going through and trying to organize. And now I have to scan a lot of them and turn them into digital photographs in order to share them with, with people. Because most of the stuff we shared is through digital means.

Anne Kelly  (00:40:53):

Yeah, the whole digital versus analog thing times come up regardless of the medium. And if it’s something I get asked about a lot as well, just in terms of what is better, my answer is gallerist is really, it just depends on what you’re doing. I’ll use Michael as an example, he does sign artwork and he also does commercial work. It doesn’t make any sense for him to do his commercial work with film, the fine art work. You can kind of slow down and, and useful if it suits you. I think it’s just the medium that inspires you. It’s it’s whatever that is. There’s not, one’s better than the other, the

Daniel Goncalves  (00:41:33):

Project too. And they use random and they can kind of be fluid and the whole digital versus analog. I think that’s been like, I don’t know if it’s a trend or what, but it’s been kind of like widespread. I mean, there’s been like this whole resurgence of, you know, the butcher shop where people are becoming like, I want to know the cuts of meat and they really wanting to go back to this time where people knew a lot about something or they’re making something with their hands, a barber shops, right? Like get this whole resurgence of barbershops where people are going to school for that and stuff. So I think there’s this kind of this almost like a push against digital and technology. And I think the simpler times, cause it’s all kind of overwhelming. Right? I think we all kind of feel it belong a lot at the time. So I feel like there’s this kind of this overwhelming push against digital and going back to the handmade craft, you know, unique,

Anne Kelly  (00:42:19):

I hadn’t heard that story from a lot of educators who are teaching younger kids where there’s all of a sudden this interest in it, just because digital has become so predominant.

Michael Kirchoff (00:42:31):

Yeah. We’ve already had the discussion about vital about the resurgence of vinyl. It’s a very similar road. They’re going down

Anne Kelly  (00:42:39):

All connected

Daniel Goncalves  (00:42:41):

And it’s magic, right? Like you put a piece of white paper and that becomes something like, whoa, same thing with the record. It’s like, what are these little bumps? Like, how does that sound like something, right. It’s just kind of something magical to it. It’s kind of hard to wipe. I mean, digital is even more confusing, but it’s like, we’re so used to it. It’s kind of like boring. You’re looking at like what, how does that work?

Michael Kirchoff (00:43:00):

Right? The other correlation that you can make too, is photography is shared predominantly now through computers, monitors the internet, but you will often you’ll often hear artists and people like Anne say, you need to look at these photographs in person because the tangible qualities, the visual qualities that you see with your own eyes are something very different. And it’s similar to in the music industry, putting on a CD or a vinyl album or experiencing a live performance. The live performance is always going to be so much more dramatic and so much more, I don’t know, fulfilling. So, and that goes with deejaying as well. I mean, it’s interactive, you’re immersed in the music now. That’s what people crave. Especially

Anne Kelly  (00:43:54):

I keep hearing about Twitch. Zach is that one of the main platforms for live streaming music. Now

Zach Wiles  (00:44:01):

It has become very popular in the pandemic before the pandemic. It was mostly the hangout for gamers and some live streamers and music and stuff like that. And now people are dreaming pretty much anything on Twitch. And so they’re having their YouTube moment. A lot of the DJ’s that I know seem to prefer Twitch Twitch is cool. It’s just one of the, one of the many ways to reach the people that you want to, that you want to connect with. I think the interesting thing about is they do want somebody to see or hear what they’re creating at the end of the day, but at the same time, you know, they’d really do feel compelled to do this. Even if nobody sees it. It’s an interesting thing. I kind of ascribed to that whole thing. Like the Greeks back in the day with like the concept of the muse people feel driven to create, because something outside of them is drawing this out of them. Or this might be getting a little too new age or old age at this point. Twitch Twitch is cool.

Talia Kosh  (00:45:03):

You know, the thing about Twitch, a couple, I’d say three or four months ago, a bunch of influencers got a ton of their archive content removed without warning from Twitch. And it just like sent this reverberation of fear through content creators about using it. So I was curious about, I haven’t looked at it lately about, you know, if that was a lasting change or if it’s kind of back to the,

Zach Wiles  (00:45:30):

I think they haven’t gotten their stuff in line yet, legally, maybe they have at this point, but Twitch’s suffering the, uh, the fate of what happens when something is popular and then is really cool to use. And then all of a sudden becomes popular enough that the people who own everything big business wise look at it and they say, oh, we should be making money off of this. And so then they kind of flex a little bit. I work for the music business, you know, I work for a major player in the music business and you know, so I mean like the, you know, infringement, it’s a real thing, but I’m also a DJ I’m playing both sides, I guess. So in terms of licensing,

Daniel Goncalves  (00:46:09):

How does that work? What is wonder like when you have like DJ mix tapes or like, even when you’re playing it, like, how does that

Zach Wiles  (00:46:14):

Work? Is it,

Daniel Goncalves  (00:46:15):

Is it cool to do that? Like if you don’t, you have to get a license for that.

Zach Wiles  (00:46:18):

How does that work? That definitely falls into the realm of the gray area still, but it is being defined in some ways deejay deejaying live just like, I’m just like a musician is covered by the venue. The venue typically has their blanket licenses in place where they pay out. So the artist who plays at a venue is not responsible for any sort of like performance royalties, because the venue takes care of that. It becomes different when it comes to streaming. And this is why you don’t really see like Spotify and other similar places just do straight up DJ mixes because the royalties and the payouts, it’s very confusing to figure out how to pay out on a DJ mix because who gets more money. And it’s very complicated as far as, you know, this song was on for two minutes, but this song was on for three minutes, but these two songs kind of were combined on top of each other.

Zach Wiles  (00:47:10):

And so like, it’s very confusing. And so a lot of places like Spotify, they’re just like, okay, we’re going to play single songs and we’re going to pay on that now. Like, and then something like SoundCloud has always been a home for DJ mixes and things like that. But from day one SoundCloud’s terms of service was like, we’re supposed to do this. You know, we, we put up original content only. There really is no home legally for a DJ mix out there. DJs have always been the, the promotion arm of the music. So a lot of times they’ve been given a pass kind of lives in the gray area though.

Anne Kelly  (00:47:46):

I mean, I’ve even thought about in, at work, trying to create a portfolio with works by multiple photographers. And just thinking about the accounting for that has given me a big enough headache to decide not to do it seems way less complicated than this print is going to be a combination of Daniel’s image and Michael’s, but it’s 20% Mike like that would no, that’s just

Zach Wiles  (00:48:16):

DJ’s have always kind of been underground. And so they’ll just generally just make something, they’ll put it out there and then they figure out the details later. So do DJs and they come up with like DJ names as like, maybe is that a way to like kind of aid like that? That’s kind of curious. I don’t think anybody renamed themselves as a DJ really to avoid that kind of, but maybe they do. I don’t know. I think it’s always just, there’s a lot of interesting nuance behind that as far as like why DJs renamed themselves, you know, like you see it in hip hop, you see it in like drum and bass. You don’t really see it so much in house, although you do, although people do do it and allow the house music DJs, a lot of the original New York underground, like early pre disco days and stuff, they didn’t rename themselves.

Zach Wiles  (00:48:58):

Hip hop kind of was like the birth of this whole artistic movement in a lot of ways, which kind of dovetailed from disco. Cause I mean like discos early disco, which, and not like, you know, BGS disco was all happening at the same time that graffiti was starting to happen. All the albums that the first hip hop party were, they weren’t rap records just also, it was like all kinds of different records, early disco stuff, you know, world music, like all kinds of stuff like that. I’m getting way too big here. But DJ has named themselves for a variety of reasons. I chose my name because data is like a, it’s a Sanskrit word that just means like revealed truth. Just thought that sounded kind of cool. And also is kind of the ethos that I bring to the reason I like deejaying is just because you have all these disparate elements and you try to like mix them all together to try to make one thing. So I thought that was kind of cool that night and that night, I didn’t want everybody to know my first name. So some strangers on the street, I didn’t want him to be like, Hey,

Anne Kelly  (00:50:00):

When you were appropriating art, there’s usually that rule that you have to change the visual image by a certain percentage. That’s a myth. Is that a myth? The test is whether it’s transformational, right. Which is kind of the most esoteric legal test.

Zach Wiles  (00:50:19):

Yeah. I mean the whole fair use thing is very that that’s what all the DJs and producers used to try to hide behind. There’s all kinds of Talia said myths around that between like, oh, if you only sample seven seconds, it’s legal. And only if you use like a certain thing and none of that’s really true the end of the day, if you’re using any part of a recording, you are using somebody else’s thing. And I don’t know how that works visually, but you know, like the fair use thing, which is like the statute of copyright law or whatever is, gosh, I can’t even really remember it off the top of my head, but it’s really just like, if it’s causing confusion in the marketplace, you know,

Talia Kosh  (00:50:56):

One factor, right? There’s like you have to look at both works, compare them, see if there’s any, like it’s, if they’re substantially similar, then you’re screwed. And, but the, basically the test is did you transform the use? So they look at the use and the purpose of the, the original work and see if like the purpose and use of the, uh, infringing, allegedly infringing work is different. So for example, I mean, it’s also parody. It involves parodies. Like there’s a, there’s a Roy Orbison case. And I can’t recall the name of the rock band, but they covered pretty woman. It was like a metal rock band and they covered all of the lyrics. Would they switch them up a little? So it was kind of a parody of itself. Roy Orbison’s estate sued and it was found to be fair use because they were actually commenting on the original work, which was the original test is if you’re commenting on the original, it was completely pure parody. If you’re commenting on the original work and you’re critiquing or commenting on it or making some kind of societal contribution that relates back to the original work, then it’s fair use. And we’ve really expanded it since then, um, to a transformational standard,

Daniel Goncalves  (00:52:22):

That Fitbit requirement that it’s kind of like transformed in terms of its original use and you’re not parody. So that kind of fits that. Or is that a separate requirement?

Talia Kosh  (00:52:31):

No, no, it’s all the same, but like usually parodies easier to argue. I mean, there’s been some cases of people saying some things parody when it’s really not. And failing at that. If you’re commenting on something, that’s a freedom of speech issue in a lot of ways, you know, we want to be able to comment on our society. We want to be able to make fun of things and allow people to make fun of things. And I mean, that’s another issue that kind of like that, that sidelines with what Zach brings up is like, if, if we have this small group and control of everything and they’re controlling the messaging, then we can’t really create new works of art that might rely on previous work.

Zach Wiles  (00:53:10):

Copyright has kind of become like the, the rallying cry of people who own everything, I guess copyright can be viewed very negatively among like younger people and creators and for one reason or another, but really the purpose of copyright is to be able to have people feel like they can create something and to feel confident that no one else will steal it. It’s really, it’s meant to protect your work. You don’t even have to register a copyright to have copyright protection in the U S I mean you do, if you, if you want to bring a case against somebody, that’s, that’s kind of like the number one question I get, why should I copyright something? You know, it’s like, well, there’s a lot of different reasons, but technically now you don’t have to copyright anything, but there are good reasons for it. So, and that’s a whole other, that’ll just put everybody to sleep

Daniel Goncalves  (00:53:59):

Italia. Is that, does that the main differences if you cooperate or not from my understanding is that you could go after a larger sum, as opposed to just like the fair use or whatever.

Talia Kosh  (00:54:08):

And, uh, it supersizes your rights. You still have a copyright if you don’t register, but you don’t register and you actually want to use your copyright as a sword and not just as shield, then you need to register.

Zach Wiles  (00:54:21):

That’s a great analogy. I’m going to start using that.

Michael Kirchoff (00:54:26):

And that the flip side of that too, is the fact that the us copyright office doesn’t exactly make it a very, like, it’s not as simple process at all. It’s complicated, it’s problematic.

Zach Wiles  (00:54:40):

They’re very picky. I fight with them.

Michael Kirchoff (00:54:45):

Well, one of the nice things that happened recently to w four photographs, there’s now a vehicle for photographers to pursue monetary damages for copyright infringement. That takes place in a sort of like a, a small claims court, a lot of photographers, especially because of things like Instagram and social media photographs are getting taken by larger corporations from photographers through digital media or social media, and use an ads. The photographers says like you can’t do that. The company says do something about it. The photographer says I’m going to hire a lawyer. The company says, that’s great. We have 15 lawyers right here who are ready to take up that case. And the photographer doesn’t stand a chance and they will literally go broke trying to seek compensation. So this new office is literally something that just has happened in the last few months.

Talia Kosh  (00:55:50):

Have they approved that?

Michael Kirchoff (00:55:52):

I don’t know if it’s a hundred percent approved, but I used to serve on the board of APA, the American photographic artists. It’s a nationwide organizations like ASAP PPA, a lot of the other photography organizations, they’ve all kind of banded together to pursue approaching congress people about forming this sort of branch of the us copyright office. So that, so that photographers have some sort of recourse. I I’m not on the board anymore, so I’m not as involved as I used to be. They made announcement that this was what was going to be taking place. And it’s probably not a hundred percent set in stone yet. Um, I don’t know if there needs to be a vote or what, but, um it was finally moving in a positive direction after literally 15 years of trying.

Talia Kosh  (00:56:42):

Thank goodness we need it so badly.

Michael Kirchoff (00:56:44):

So, I mean, that’s a step in the right direction.

Daniel Goncalves  (00:56:47):

That’s great to hear. I have a question, a question that worked that as well. Right now, there’s a case to professional basketball player who used the photograph of themselves that a photographer took on their Instagram feed, the photographer sued, and now the basketball player and his lawyers are shooting the photographer because he has photographs of this athlete on their website. So they’re arguing that you’re using it. Let’s see what that, um, model release for commercial purposes. Cause it’s on your website and your website’s purpose is to advertise your work. So obviously it’s like a strong arm thing to try to get them to back off. Cause they’re trying to, I guess, settle. But I was just wondering about that. Like, cause that’s something that I’ve often wondered about too. It’s like if you put something on your website it’s right. The player is probably here. He got a place for LA

Talia Kosh  (00:57:37):

In California because California has a decent, uh, publicity rights of publicity statute from what I understand. So it depends on the state. Yeah. It’s an interesting issue. It would be where it’s taken and potentially where that, that income stream is landing. I think it also comes down to how, uh, famous this basketball player is because if he’s a public figure, then that’s probably going to be a defense that they use if he, if he is going after them. But it’s been a second since I’ve reviewed California’s, uh, publicity statute, but I think it’s pretty strong. It’s pretty solid. I mean, there are some rights there there’s a newsworthy exception. Right. And which is what the paparazzi rely on. But if you’re selling it in a gallery, your purpose and use changes, which is transformative, what we’re talking about,

Michael Kirchoff (00:58:32):

That’s actually very similar to that too. A lot of what happens with, uh, photographers who do performance photography, especially like concert, photo photographs. Like there was, I think there was a case from a photographer that he brought up the case I can, uh, Ariana Grande’s for using his photographs. She did. I think, I dunno. I think it was as simple as something as she used them on her Instagram and he said, oh, those are my photographs. And she said, yeah, but it’s a photograph of me. So I should be able to use a photograph of me. I’m the brand. I should be able to use that picture. And I don’t know. Um, I think there’s been similar cases with, I think Taylor swift, uh, I know that a lot of bands, even bands like the foo fighters, um, have had issues with photographers, taking photographs at their shows and say, if you take photographs at our shows, we get to use them however we want or else don’t take them.

Talia Kosh  (00:59:32):

Yeah. That’s difficult because, um, it’s kind of like they’re tying each other up. Um, but you know, it’s, if the photographer is the one who’s shooting the images and the copyright belongs to the photographer. So yeah, you can’t just say that unless you’re arguing some kind of implied license by putting it out in the marketplace or it’s a stock photo image or something like that. But, um, you can’t just say, because it’s a photo of me, I get to use it. Although it’s really enticing to want to do one,

Michael Kirchoff (01:00:05):

Some cases, the photographers benefit by, you know, if, if, if your form of payment is, I have a hundred more people that like my Instagram page, if that’s good enough for you then. Great. But that doesn’t,

Talia Kosh  (01:00:18):

But it goes a long way, especially with like influencers and Instagrammers. I mean like the, the Richard Prince lawsuits are great adventure into all of that, with his, you know, uh, appropriating influence, influencer images that aren’t being used for commercial purposes and blowing them up really large to four, six feet and, you know, selling them at gallery for like, you know, thousand a piece to like a million. Is that transformative. I mean, a lot of people are upset about that, but it’s a good question.

Daniel Goncalves  (01:00:58):

I think he would make comments on comment or something. Yeah. So see, I learned something new too. Everyone’s

Talia Kosh  (01:01:04):

Learning thing about that case.

Michael Kirchoff (01:01:07):

Well, that was the case suit cause he had taken photo. He had literally just lifted images off of Instagram, not just the image, but the comments and the likes that showed up on there and main principles,

Talia Kosh  (01:01:19):

Commenter, you know, he inserted himself and plants and then made other comments be deleted. And he wrote this like, you know, he’s a, an appropriation artist. He never used to talk about his work, but then he wrote this like long blog about his process of taking the Instagram image and trying to delete the comments. So his image started first and like making these called it bird talk like his responses to the comments. So it’s very interesting that he kind of turned around the, his initial. Um, he had another lawsuit before that, where he won, um, and kind of changed fair use law. And then he challenged that and tried to expand upon it as like, oh, so your answer in my case that I want is that as long as I’m commenting on somebody’s image, I can appropriate it. Well, what about if it’s this blame? It’s very interesting. Okay. And in most of

Anne Kelly  (01:02:19):

Cases, most of the creative things that we’re doing, we’re just doing them because we love to do them. It’s not necessarily an immediate monetary gain that is motivating us just because we love it. What, what is that? And all of us that, you know, maybe you work a 40 hour week, but you come home and you just feel driven to, to create this thing. Where does that come from? What, what is that? Anybody have any thoughts on that? I’m sure we all do big question.

Michael Kirchoff (01:02:50):

Yeah, you’re right. Yeah. This is full of big questions today, but you’re right. I mean, I think like you’re saying the, the creative part of what we’re doing is driven by something that’s very internal, something that’s passionate about, uh, expressing ourselves, whether it’s through music or photography or any art forms through, in fit, through the investigating of a lot of photographers in the photographs I’ve been looking at through the different venues. And I know that Anne sees this a lot too, being a gallerist, a lot of the work that’s being created is being created by people who are doing it. They’re doing it full time. Necessarily. A lot of people have day jobs, probably it’s I would think of it’s the predominant truth that most of these people, most people have day jobs outside of this passion that they have. And it just gives them a creative voice sometimes monetizing that is important to them.

Michael Kirchoff (01:03:45):

And sometimes it’s not. I mean, I know plenty of people who have very lucrative careers, I actually did a feature on somebody who works in the medical field and he makes an incredible living, but he has a creative side to him that takes place through photography and printmaking. And he made some like really crazy dark, often disturbing imagery, but it’s all kind of based upon his past and how he sees the world and his life and the medical profession. He doesn’t need to make a dime off of photography. You can just do it because he loves it. It’s actually kind of freeing to a certain degree too, because he doesn’t care what a gallery thinks he doesn’t care what an editor thinks. He’s just making art for himself. And if you respond in a positive way to that, well, that’s just great. Right. And he got my attention and I was able to write about it and show the work and people love it. Or some people hated it, but some people, most people loved it, but that’s, what’s great. It’s begins that, you know, there’s a conversation about art that arises out of it and that’s all he really cared about.

Daniel Goncalves  (01:04:52):

And I think that’s different for everyone, right. I mean, it’s just kinda like some people went to racing cars. Some people went to ukulele. Some people are into photography, deejaying, whatever it’s like. And what is that? Like, sometimes it’s hard to figure out, right? Cause you’re saying it’s almost like the slick and tangible thing. It’s like something that you driven to do, whether it’s for money, probably not for talking about like from an artist’s perspective, what drives you to do something that there is no immediate financial, but why is it that you can do that? That is kind of interesting too. It’s more like a psychological therapy question we’ve got to get on the, go to coach on the show.

Michael Kirchoff (01:05:25):

Yeah. I don’t think anybody’s really getting into any, getting into the art world to make up a lot of fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the people that, that do that, that actually make a good living off of something of something like photography or anything in the arts for that metric. Yeah.

Anne Kelly  (01:05:44):

So I mean, just a lot of the things we were talking about prior to this involved, involved money as, as the motivation. So it’s just something that I’ve been thinking about a lot recently, like Tanya, you’ve worked up 57 hour week, but you, you can’t wait to get home and play some songs. Like where, where does that come from?

Talia Kosh  (01:06:07):

It’s an impulse, like you were saying, it’s not even something that, um, you would think about as being a chore and maybe that’s because it isn’t something that, um, you know, I have to do to make money. You know, maybe there’s something significant about that. But I think that it brings up a bigger question about value, how we value things and having those daily rituals and practices that we incorporate that bring more meaning into our lives. You know, we’re often creative. Um, you know, it can, it can be anything. And so I think that’s a way for people to relate to that question who may not initially relate to it as like, what are the daily rituals and practices, you know, that, that bring meaning to your life.

Anne Kelly  (01:06:54):

And I think we’re all lucky to have that. Not, not everybody necessarily does,

Michael Kirchoff (01:07:00):

But I think everybody should it’s therapeutic, but this is really just with photography music, especially. I mean, there’s like a release that kind of, that happens, brings a certain kind of peace of mind. And I think listening to music, playing music or any art form is therapeutic. Everybody should have some kind of a creative outlet in their life because I think it’s, I think it’s just healthy.

Anne Kelly  (01:07:23):

So if you’re watching and you don’t have that, we encourage you Watch her in the rock and tired that that was part of my intention. And then I might need to actually bring a psychologist on the show to maybe maybe participate in this conversation. I have one in mind. I do know one, So maybe the next art in the Ross social hour. And this is by the way, the first art in the Raw social hour, we weren’t really, I wasn’t really sure how this was all going to go down. I had a good feeling about it, much like the first episode of art and the raw, it just kind of unfolded I’ve I’ve been a terrible moderator. Did every, did anybody not ask their question?

Daniel Goncalves  (01:08:09):

So many questions? I’m like, that’s my photographer. Cause I want to understand things. So Zach, um, on your first year of you were talking about, um, the Northern soul in the UK and I’ve had those and I looked into that cause I’m like, that sounds interesting. Kind of like sounds like it was like kind of like the first raves kind of before waves were around or something. So very similar kind of idea where you have like total takeover, a place, spend some records, whatever, all night I was just curious, like what, what is it now? Cause I don’t know, like when I was in college, they had like the Tampa break beats. I was like gone into that kind of scene. I missed out on the whole ecstasy thing. I was too nerd , but I was into like the whole music thing. I just kind of curious as what do you think is what’s today’s version of all that is, is still electronic, is it?

Zach Wiles  (01:08:51):

I think electronic music is still very much out there and the marriage of technology and music, which really you can say is really grown ever since the beginning of recorded music ever since 78, like I was talking about in the beginning, it’s all just really developed. Now. It just develops, it had a, at an exponentially faster rate than it did maybe in the early 19 hundreds between Northern soul, then moving into disco and then moving into hip hop and then how like, you know, house and house breed, techno. And from there, I just started really branching out into those like coastal breaks, like down in Miami, Tampa and Miami booty bass, it just keeps growing and reinventing itself. And not even to say anything about, you know, like hip hop and where that’s gone and what’s different now, it’s kind of coming in on itself.

Zach Wiles  (01:09:40):

Again, the lines are being very much blurred when I was going to rave. So it was very much like people were like, oh, I’m in hip hop or I’m in the house. Or I’m more into drum and base. People were very much, they had their focus and you know, now I see people, a lot of these producers now they produce something. It’s got like trap drums to it, but it’s got house melody lines and you know, hip hop samples in it. And so everything is very much being combined and reinventing itself. And it belongs with the youth. I am always out there listening, but really at the end of the day, I’m not the person to ask about that. It’s like, what are the kids doing now? I don’t even know. I mean, I’ll always still go out and play music and DJ just cause I love all that stuff. You know, music is in clubs now, like in LA, like you, like, I don’t know if you guys partake, but before COVID, you know, like the LA warehouse scene was pretty, pretty popping, underground parties, cash bars, techy, parts of town. And that was pretty much how it was back in the nineties. Like what you were talking about. Like the first interview I had with an, like, I called it perennial and I think it still is like that. It’s just kind of, it grows over here, grows over here constantly reinvents itself.

Daniel Goncalves  (01:10:48):

No doubt here recently. So I’m still, now I’m trying to get the lay of the land. Yeah.

Zach Wiles  (01:10:52):

A lot of people will have off the books, kind of music shows out in these warehouses out here and it feels like it did back in the nineties, younger kids these days are so funny because you know, and this makes me definitely sound like an old person around like kids these days, they’ll say, oh, I’m a rave kid. And I’m like, you’re not a rave kid, you know, electronic music and you go to a club and you weren’t there man. The beginning where it was just people with like overhead projectors, taking little pieces of like colored dye and mixing it all together and everything. And like everyone was like, oh my God, that’s so crazy everywhere. You know? And like vapor rub and like all that crap, you know, but, but you know, it’s kind of like that again. Now maybe they are rave kids again and I’m just old and um, possibly just jaded,

Daniel Goncalves  (01:11:39):

I think you had mentioned that your dad had gotten you or you’d gotten the, like a Polaroid SX 70 or something like that as the first camera. And though your analog, I was just curious, like what would be like your desert camera, if you only could only have one,

Michael Kirchoff (01:11:52):

It would probably be what I’m still working with right now. Although there is a, an end to it because I’m still using film that predominantly, that it hasn’t been made since 2007. One of the materials that I use now and have used since I first started in photography is a Polaroid positive, negative film. It’s just something that I’ve really embraced in terms of my photography, because a lot of my photography is based upon flaws and bypassed. I’m going to continue doing that as long as I possibly can. They probably won’t work the same way for anybody else. My work has kind of become synonymous with that.

Talia Kosh  (01:12:35):

And I have a question for you. So we’ve talked about the death of the album. We’ve talked about the slow death of digital photography, looking at the death of the gallery during this time as well. I mean, so many galleries are going out of business. So how, how have you had to change your advertising practices and connecting with collectors and you know, what does that looked like?

Anne Kelly  (01:13:02):

It’s just been having to be a little, extra creative and finding new ways to connect with our clients. So it’s more been about figuring out how to do online exhibitions and have those ex online exhibitions be really good as opposed to just going to the website and looking at some pictures, something people could have done before making more video content living in Santa Fe. We usually on average, as I understand it have about 200 galleries at any given time and they’re always opening and closing and that’s just kind of a normal thing, but it will be, I’m a little anxious to see what that’s actually going to look like this time next year.

Talia Kosh  (01:13:41):

It’ll be interesting to see any business that

Anne Kelly  (01:13:44):

Makes it support your local restaurants, galleries, all the little businesses. I mean, living with art makes a really big difference. I think all of us have an art collection to a certain extent and it really does make a big difference every day. When you wake up and you see something inspiring on your walls,

Michael Kirchoff (01:14:04):

Uh, similar to making the art. I mean, it’s therapeutic living with artists therapeutic as well. It’s helpful. Maybe Tanya

Anne Kelly  (01:14:11):

At the end, she

Michael Kirchoff (01:14:12):

Can play us out,

Anne Kelly  (01:14:17):

But I’ll try it. If you’re down to play a song, we would love that. Let me

Talia Kosh  (01:14:22):

Find my ukulele

Speaker 6 (01:14:23):

While you

Anne Kelly  (01:14:24):

And just grab it. So we’ll close out with like a light fluffy question for everybody starting with Daniel Sweet or salty salty for breakfast, but I have a big sweet tooth Michael’s sweet or salty.

Michael Kirchoff (01:14:36):

I also have a big sweet tooth, but I’m actually going to say salty and more along those lines, spicy,

Anne Kelly  (01:14:42):

Um, or salty or sweet. Yes.

Talia Kosh  (01:14:45):

Well, I’m trying to stay away from sugar these days. So I’d have to say salty.

Anne Kelly  (01:14:49):

Do we have to choose? Yes. I mean, just for this moment,

Talia Kosh  (01:14:55):

I hate choosing things. I’m just terrible at it.

Zach Wiles  (01:14:59):

I would choose salty myself in food and in attitude,

Anne Kelly  (01:15:08):

I would also go with salty. I gotta say, I’m, I’m a big fan of brunch and hopefully one of these days, everybody will come over for a nice salty crunch. All right, Talia.

Talia Kosh  (01:15:22):

Um, this is on my AP. That’s coming out. This is the pretty much the only song that I have is that’s kind of, I guess bluegrassy,

Speaker 6 (01:15:30):

You’ve heard it before. Probably [inaudible] [inaudible]

Anne Kelly  (01:18:02):

Yay.

Michael Kirchoff (01:18:07):

The camera froze right at the beginning. Can you do that again?

Anne Kelly  (01:18:15):

Well, thank you Talia and thank you everybody. I love you guys. Episode one of art in the raw and the first art and the RA social hour. I had fun. I hope you guys did too. Thank you for anybody who’s listening. We really appreciate ya. And uh, like comment, subscribe. There’s more episodes coming soon.

Michael Kirchoff (01:18:39):

Thank you everybody else for the conversation. It was wonderful. Thank you.

Zach Wiles  (01:18:43):

It was a lot of fun. Y’all thank you all. Great to meet everyone and thanks Anne.

Anne Kelly  (01:18:47):

Oh, for sure.

Zach Wiles  (01:18:48):

Hit me up when you go to warehouse party. Right? All right. Sounds good. Take it easy.

Speaker 7 (01:19:14):

[inaudible].