Transcrption Music + Art Law | Creative Outlets with Talia Kosh

Anne Kelly  (00:00:18):

Are recording. Welcome to Art and the Raw I’m your host and Kelly. Our guest today is Talia Kosh. And where are you today?

Talia Kosh (00:00:26):

I’m in Santa Fe,  New Mexico. Um, in my home,

Anne Kelly  (00:00:31):

Talia is a musician and she’s also the president of  New Mexico lawyers for the arts and a practicing attorney as well. So very diverse.

Talia Kosh (00:00:45):

Yes. There’s actually a lot of attorneys, um, in the world and in, in New Mexico that are also musicians it’s probably so that we can stay sane.

Anne Kelly  (00:00:56):

Just having creative outlets. I feel like is, is such a valuable thing for, for the human being and especially these days to,

Talia Kosh (00:01:05):

Especially

Anne Kelly  (00:01:06):

These days yeah.

Talia Kosh (00:01:08):

Hooked up and mine as well. Right.

Anne Kelly  (00:01:10):

So you’ve been playing music for quite a while, as I am. It’s been about.

Talia Kosh (00:01:17):

Yeah, it’s been about 10 years and I was playing out with, it was more of a, it had more of a rock band feel to it for a number of years, I’d say like four. Um, and then I started only playing with, um, guitarists, um, primarily in, um, you know, piano, lounge venues like finess. Um, I, until COVID hit and, you know, I’ve had a few online concerts since then and, um, I have some PR preexisting and already recorded music that will be coming out soon. So that’s good. I’m glad that I got into the studio before COVID hit to do all of that. Um, and still work with Robert McCormick, um, who is one of my, uh, the guitar player that I work with. So that we’ll be doing a couple, um, you know, maybe a little less polished versions of some of my songs, but, um, I think they still sound really good. So yeah, it’s just a, a re um, for all musicians in terms of, um, you know, what the future looks like, because this is not going away anytime soon and sort of the, the touring life and the playing out life is, um, dead in the water right now. So, um, you know, we’re, I think we’re all, um, reeducating ourselves on what kind of equipment we need and you know, how important social media is to artists now more than ever before.

Anne Kelly  (00:02:56):

So the band is called go golden general golden

Talia Kosh (00:02:59):

General. Um, which my brother called me growing up. It’s a, uh, it’s a dragon Lance reference and she was a, a character in that series, um, a minor character, but she was the only, uh, one that could see save the village from the dragon that was ravishing the land. Um, and then she transformed into this character, the golden general.

Anne Kelly  (00:03:28):

Well, I kind of feel like that’s what music and art is now

Talia Kosh (00:03:32):

Is yes, it has that transformational element more than ever before. Yeah,

Anne Kelly  (00:03:37):

Absolutely. And, and you <affirmative> write original music, but you also play some covers as well. And you play the ukulele.

Talia Kosh (00:03:47):

I do. I primarily play the ukulele a little guitar, but, um, I find that the ukulele is, um, really good to write songs on. For some reason it just makes the creativity flow. Um, maybe it’s just because you can pick it up so easily and you can carry it with you everywhere. And it fits in the overhead bin. <laugh> little, this may end up being an advertisement for everybody getting a E ukulele, but that’s OK.

Anne Kelly  (00:04:15):

Well, I’ve, they’ve kind of increased in popularity as I understand it. <laugh>

Talia Kosh (00:04:20):

Yeah, yeah. Um, actually our friend, Jamie, Bob, she just told me that she picked up a E ukulele the other day and, uh, oh, that’s great. Is already starting to play songs on it. It makes, it makes music really accessible because there’s 24

Anne Kelly  (00:04:33):

Chords easier than toting around a giant bass or something like

Talia Kosh (00:04:38):

That. Yeah. Or a guitar. Yeah. Even

Anne Kelly  (00:04:40):

A guitar. This is actually kind of a funny thing. Um, my neighbor who I don’t really know seems to be practicing the standup base in her house right now. Oh, perfect. Not, not loud enough that we can pick it up on the speakers, but it’s it’s happening and it’s appropriate. So <laugh>, I love it. We’ll bring her over. <laugh>. So before the current situation, you were playing a lot of live shows around town, but simultaneously recording, um, the album that you were mentioning.

Talia Kosh (00:05:12):

Yes. And it’ll, Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it’ll be four songs and it’s been a long time coming. Um, you know, I, I think gets like with any artist, you know, you can just keep working on something and then there’s the album art, and then there’s, you know, there’s just choice after choice after choice. So at some point you just have to pull the trigger. Right. So that’s

Anne Kelly  (00:05:35):

Where I’m at right now. And then early in, in the current situation, you, you played online as part of it was a benefit it for the, the food bank, for

Talia Kosh (00:05:44):

The food Depot food, um, yeah. Through, um, or with Santa fe.com set that up, broadcasting, um, it band together. That’s what it was called. We raised a nice little bit of money that day. That was nice. And it was a great way to just kind of get everyone together. At that point. Everybody was still really in panic mode and nobody was going out anywhere in New Mexico. So it was really nice to see everybody online. And

Anne Kelly  (00:06:16):

Then you recently, or maybe it wasn’t that recent, but you played as part of the Ghostlight sessions at the lens

Talia Kosh (00:06:23):

At the Lensic. Yeah. That’s a great, um, yeah, that’s a great series that the lens has, um, since they can’t utilize really their space right now, they’re, um, bringing in mostly local musicians to on the lens stage, which, uh, you know, I’m sure that’s a lot of our dream is to play on the lens stage. Not many musicians get to do that unless it’s a special event. So that was exciting to be up there. Um, it was very bright <laugh> in my eyes and I was just hoping that it turned out all right. But it did. I thought, I thought it was a good set that, um, that, that came out of that. And it’s great that they’re doing that and everybody should check out, um, their Ghostlight sessions cuz it’s just, uh, an ongoing series.

Anne Kelly  (00:07:09):

I’ll, I’ll put a link to your portion of that in the, in the YouTube description. But what I mean, that must have been crazy. I mean, obviously you weren’t in there all by yourself, but compared to what the lens is normally like, it must have just been crazy just to be in there almost alone.

Talia Kosh (00:07:32):

Yeah. I mean just two other people with one take and uh, so yeah, a, a little nerve-wracking because you know, it’s gonna be owned to the world <laugh> but it turned out great. It was really fun to be up on that stage.

Anne Kelly  (00:07:45):

So I was, um, looking back on that article that the Santa Fe reporter wrote about you, was it about a year ago when you were playing at Vanessa’s pretty regularly. And um, I, I kind of missed this the first time I read article. And, um, it mentioned that you sang it as part of a gospel choir when you were in college. Yes.

Talia Kosh (00:08:07):

Yeah. I, um, which

Anne Kelly  (00:08:09):

Makes sense, you listen to your music. I can see that inspiration.

Talia Kosh (00:08:13):

Yeah. And that was in Charleston, South Carolina. And it was, uh, a choir of about a hundred people and I only white girl and it was amazing <laugh> and, uh, I, when I auditioned the, um, the teacher said that I sounded like some other person and he held his heart and that just made me feel really good <laugh> it was definitely was an encouragement to keep going.

Anne Kelly  (00:08:39):

And then years later you got the ukulele as a gift from your dad and that’s when you started writing music regularly. Do I have that that’s

Talia Kosh (00:08:48):

Right. And then later years later, um, I discovered my dad told me just randomly that my grandfather, um, owned multiple ukuleles and would play them. And I didn’t know that before then. So it kind of runs in the family apparently.

Anne Kelly  (00:09:05):

How cool is that? I, I inherited the love of music. What, by ukulele,

Talia Kosh (00:09:11):

I’ll go with you to get one

Anne Kelly  (00:09:13):

Uhhuh, you know, I was think about it. Um, and, and, and, okay, so this is a kind of a funny rabbit hole. I’ve I’ve been down this week when I’ve started doing these conversations. And I didn’t really know I was gonna do this. I started looking up, um, or just kind of researching histories of things that I would not have done, but I started looking up the, the, the history of the ukulele, cause I didn’t know anything about it. And I was curious and it, it turns out that it was, um, there was a very similar instrument that I’m forgetting, forgetting what it’s called right now that came, um, from Portugal. And it was a, a Portuguese sailor brought it to Hawaii. And then the Hawaiians invented the UK ukulele based upon the large population of, of Portuguese people that were moving there. And that was that’s interesting, like early 1900 or wow.

Talia Kosh (00:10:17):

So I didn’t know about the Portuguese connection.

Anne Kelly  (00:10:21):

Yeah. And then what, earlier this week completely unrelated. I was having a conversation with another friend who was introduced me to, uh, a genre of music I wasn’t familiar with, which is Fado, which is basically Portuguese blues. So he had sent me a few links earlier this week and I thought, oh wow, this is, I, I really, really enjoyed it. I don’t think he knew how much I enjoyed it. And as I was reading more into this and started thinking about, okay, the origin of the UK ukulele and, um, the Portuguese and, and that whole combination of it, I, um, into that, that, yeah, FA was a music movement in, in Portugal, in, I don’t know, 18 something or other. And so my friend who introduced me to Fado, I actually sent the, the link to your, um, Ghostlight sessions and he really loved your music and, and said he could send some little photo in it. Cool.

Talia Kosh (00:11:22):

I have to check that out. I

Anne Kelly  (00:11:23):

Love that. I’ll send you some links after this and kind of the whole thing, I guess, with that. I mean, you figure it’s, it’s blues, but like so many things it’s kind of that combination of. Um, and I think that’s how we ended up sending me the link. We were looking at a picture that we thought was both beautiful and sad all at the same time. And, um, so I don’t know. Um, it’s, it’s kind of interesting the different influences

Talia Kosh (00:11:47):

That start to come out.

Anne Kelly  (00:11:50):

Yeah, exactly. And, and wear different musical instruments came from and, and just kind of how different cultures influence each other. So I’ll, I’ll send you some of those links after this

Talia Kosh (00:12:01):

Conversation. No, I would love that. And the, the other thing I find about UK ukuleles is that once you buy one, you want to keep buying them because they’re all so different. And, you know, there’s different sizes. Like, um, like for example, this one, um, I was on a, your waiting list for this one it’s made out of Sycamore wood. Wow. And, um, it’s by the Mamo ukulele company they’re, um, out of Oregon, which, um, is going through an unfortu, but, uh, and this is a, a tenor. So, you know, there’s, there’s two, there’s two sizes smaller than this. Um, and so, and then, you know, there’s, there’s all different kinds of strings you can put on it and it, it can get really fun. So, um, it’s definitely, I’m an advocate of everyone have having a little ukulele.

Anne Kelly  (00:12:55):

And how, how many do you have now? How many of you collected?

Talia Kosh (00:12:59):

I have, um, two kind of electric ukuleles and then maybe three or four acoustic. A couple of them don’t plug in. One of them is my grandfathers. It’s, it’s a, it’s a soprano and it doesn’t stay in tune and it’s really hard to play. So I just kinda leave that up on the wall <laugh>

Anne Kelly  (00:13:21):

But how wonderful to have that

Talia Kosh (00:13:23):

That’s yeah. And

Anne Kelly  (00:13:25):

I’ve seen, you can get lower end version ukuleles for, for

Talia Kosh (00:13:30):

Sure model. They, it, you know, it is harder for them to stay and tune and, and more often you play it, it’s kind of like a car, you know, you just need to keep, it likes to be driven. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yes. You don’t wanna keep it sitting idle or, uh, unused, cuz then it, it kind of becomes worthless, like, like a biker car

Anne Kelly  (00:13:51):

Before the current times as we’re calling them, you, you, you also played a number of house concerts as well, in addition to sure.

Talia Kosh (00:13:59):

I’ll still play a house concert <laugh> properly, right. Different <laugh>

Anne Kelly  (00:14:06):

How, how is that experience different for

Talia Kosh (00:14:09):

You? There’s some people that just play house concerts, there’s some musicians that prefer it. And I, I liken it more to like being in Vanessa’s or being in a piano bar where people are there to hear the music instead of in a bar where there’s a TV behind you and people could care less really if you’re there or not. Um, it’s a drastic difference. And, and, um, even though sometimes the, the crowds at Vanessa’s were small, I still, um, came to prefer it to, you know, a late night show in a bar. Um, and thinking about that and in light of this new COVID world, um, you know, there are a lot of opportunities for more intimate settings. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, or like even what Debbie’s doing was so far Santa Fe. Um, yeah.

Anne Kelly  (00:15:07):

And you played one of those.

Talia Kosh (00:15:08):

Yeah. I played with so far sounds, uh, for people who don’t know. Yeah. Check out so far sounds in the city that you’re, you’re in, they’ve kind of transitioned right now to, um, you know, like online, intimate concerts, but it’s an intimate concert concept, um, where it, uh, you have to sign up before and you have to pay for tickets and the venue is secret and you dunno where you’re gonna go. And in some larger cities it’s very popular and it’s a, it’s a hit people love not really knowing where they’re going and not knowing who they’re going to see in Santa Fe. That’s, that’s been difficult because people aren’t used to that fresh cons and wanna know who it is and they wanna know where they’re going and they wanna know what part of town it’s gonna be in. And it’s just, it’s funny to, to break through these barriers that, yeah,

Anne Kelly  (00:16:02):

I I’m, I’m glad I went to one of the last ones that Debbie put on here in, in Santa Fe at, at our mutual friend’s house that was early on where, um, I think she kept it a little smaller. I’m I’m glad I went. I’m gonna have to bring, um, if she’s up for it, I’m gonna have to bring Debbie on here to talk about, cause it’s a very cool, cool thing. New Mexico lawyers for the arts it’s are you the, you’re the president, you’re the founder as well. Aren’t you?

Talia Kosh (00:16:33):

I’m the founder and president. And, um, uh, when I first came back to New Mexico, um, after living in DC for a couple years where there was a year waiting list to even assist with the pro bono, uh, attorney network there that worked with artists, um, they’re volunteer lawyers for the arts. Um, I came back here and discovered that there currently wasn’t one, there had been one and then it shut down and anyway, it had this kind of strange history, but, um, uh, with the support of some other nonprofits like creative Santa and Tom moison was a part of that at the time. And I started to get into, um, helping arts related nonprofits and, um, then formed New Mexico schoolers for the arts. And it was, you know, primarily, um, uh, clinic based and education based. And, and it is, and got that off the ground.

Talia Kosh (00:17:36):

And we still have a couple pro bono clinics a year. And, um, it is, it is interesting trying to keep a nonprofit going on the side, um, you know, for so long because what it, what is interesting and what people don’t understand about, um, you know, that kind of nonprofit work in terms of what it did for, for me and my career and what I try to explain to new attorneys as well is like putting yourself out there and doing some pro bono work is actually the best kind of advertising that you can get. If you do it in the area that you wanna receive more clients, um, because your name is just gonna spread like wildfire and, you know, especially in Santa Fe that it’s, everything’s referral based. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, we live our world in a referral based here. Yeah. It helps to advertise of course, but that’s just not the way that Santa Fe works. And so it

Anne Kelly  (00:18:35):

A more, a creative form of advertising. It seems to me, and a way to be, just provide such valuable assistance to people that might not be able to, uh, afford to hire someone or, or just wouldn’t think to do that. And then just all things you’re really passionate about to begin with.

Talia Kosh (00:18:55):

Yeah. Yeah. And so it kind, it, it definitely took my career more in that direction. Um, and then in 2016, I started working more with me Wolf and that really has taken away a lot of my time to be able to devote to the pro bono aspects. Um, but it, it truly is, uh, needed more than ever. Now. I’m also on the intellectual property section of the New Mexico bar. And, um, we have a pro bono legal clinic, um, coming up in November that will be online, um, which is the first time that we’ve ever done this online. It’s a great experiment. We’ve been kind of building this relationship in the last three years with the law school to have a clinic where law students can actually participate and, um, shadow attorneys when we can’t do that right now, but we can still help people in online clinics. So I’ll share that on new Mexicos for the arts page when it happens, but that’ll be in November. And it’s a great idea. I mean, I don’t know why, you know, you start getting into like all of the reasons that we didn’t do things online or virtually, but for, and none of them make sense anymore. Like, um, somebody was just posting that kids aren’t gonna know what snow days are anymore because there’s no excuse anymore.

Talia Kosh (00:20:25):

It’s over I’m that we got snow days, kids nowadays, they’re never gonna get another snow day, but I mean, it’s the same. Eventually I think with attorneys, we felt like so much of our work had to be in person, but at the end of the day, it can all be virtual. I know some firms that are going completely virtual. They’re not going back to a brick and mortar space. And that is incredible. That’s an incredible concept. Um, and it, you know, there’s a lot of ups and downs to that, but we’re, we’re, again, we’re back to that adaptation question, um,

Anne Kelly  (00:21:05):

And answer. So you can be on the chair, lift this winter if the ski area opens and, um, potentially just fit in meetings.

Talia Kosh (00:21:16):

I just need to get Ray booster.

Anne Kelly  (00:21:19):

Yes. <laugh> there you go. I don’t have an

Talia Kosh (00:21:24):

Internet booster yet. <laugh>

Anne Kelly  (00:21:26):

Yeah. I, I know the booster <laugh>

Talia Kosh (00:21:30):

So you get that from me and we’ll do some, some pro bono meetings on the, uh, chairlift. There you

Anne Kelly  (00:21:35):

Go. Well, you’ve also, you’ve put on a lot of different panel discussions and a lot, you, you, one of the things I admire about you is, is, is there’s just certain things that you really have a passion for. Um, it’s, it’s kind of amazing the number of, of just different things that you engage in because you just you’re in it for the love, um, cuz putting on those panel discussions. And then we, we did a few years ago at, um, at photo eye for photographers. You’ve also done a lot of work for, um, and those are still up on, on Vimeo. I discovered the other day. Oh no, I know

Talia Kosh (00:22:16):

If you, if you, if you go through the pages on Google enough, they’ll come up.

Anne Kelly  (00:22:20):

<laugh> it’ll exactly. And then, um, the film industry, you’ve done a lot with the film industry as well. I am,

Talia Kosh (00:22:27):

I’m currently on the governor’s council of film and media industries in New Mexico. It’s a, a brand new, um, or it’s a new council. Um, they’re all pretty much fresh except for a couple of us who have been on for a number of years. But um, yeah, an interesting time for creatives, right in general. Um, because production is still on hold right now for the most part in New Mexico. Um, and there’s been a number of white papers released and things will start com getting back into production soon. But, um, yeah, I mean, it’s all gonna change as to how that happens, um, because there’s gonna have to be someone assigned to really monitoring all of the health and safety, um, concerns and, and mandates from the state. So, um, it’s definitely an undertaking for productions these days more than an ever before, which is

Anne Kelly  (00:23:30):

What, and it helps to be a creative person.

Talia Kosh (00:23:33):

Yeah, that’s true.

Anne Kelly  (00:23:34):

Something I’ve been giving thought to, um, recently, and it’s not my original idea, but I’ve, um, a lot of other I’ve come across this idea in, in multiple locations recently, which is if you’re a creative person, you’re just a creative person in all avenues of your life. It, it’s not limited to just playing music, it’s going to extend into being an attorney or your creative you’re creative. And um, so it, it, um, it, it kind of makes me, or just in your law practice, like

Talia Kosh (00:24:06):

I think that there’s some, uh, aspects of, of the work that I do that is creative mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but I think that, um, law is limited in a way in terms of the creativity that you are able to express it’s certainly is limiting, uh, um, you know, which is why I, you know, I’m trying to go kind of in some alternative directions compared to the typical law firm track that just doesn’t, um, necessarily completely jive with, um, you know, those creative aspects of my personality. And so yeah, in that way, it’s about seeking ever new ways is kind of my motto. Um, but you know, just generally, and, and seeing and witnessing this, you know, since March, um, with COVID is that, you know, you’d think that there is so much creativity being generated still, but in some ways you’d think that there would be lots more being generated.

Talia Kosh (00:25:11):

And it’s an interesting thing to, to kind of break through the paralysis that can come with all of the fear that’s in the world and all of the transition and change and uncertainty, um, and sadness of not being able to connect with other people like we used to and not being able to go see live music and all these things that we used to have as outlets aren’t there anymore. And so it can create, it can cause a creative paralysis, um, that the, and we have to break through and I, you know, and, and it, and it shifts over time and it comes in waves, but I think, you know, the important thing is to not be hard on yourself, mm-hmm <affirmative>, if you’re going through that creative paralysis, because it’ll just make, it’ll just make that stunting. Even,

Anne Kelly  (00:26:08):

I think there was that thing in the beginning where certain people felt like, okay, I’ve got this extra time. If I don’t, uh, remodel my entire house and, um, clean out all my closets, I’m failing.

Talia Kosh (00:26:21):

Right. You know,

Anne Kelly  (00:26:22):

Failing and, and, and not everybody was able to do that. And, um, I, I was, I’ve been lucky to be working throughout this whole thing. So I’ve not had time to clean out my closets, which I, you know, I feel very blessed, um, for that, but I think, I think we need to be less hard on ourselves. Um, just because maybe in theory, there’s extra time. I don’t know. Is there extra time or, or, or I think even just being in a position where you feel like you have to do something not helpful for the creative process, you must write this thing now. Um, we

Talia Kosh (00:26:59):

Need original

Anne Kelly  (00:27:00):

Column by next week

Talia Kosh (00:27:02):

And you have this time doesn’t mean it’s gonna come, it’s just gonna happen naturally. I mean, it, it’s almost easier to be crunched for time for some of us mm-hmm <affirmative> because we work under pressure better. So it can actually be difficult. I found actually that time feels like it’s going by faster and I don’t know why, because we all have more of it. It’s the strangest thing

Anne Kelly  (00:27:24):

I felt like it slowed down and then it sped up again. I have no idea. Um, but <laugh> normally, uh, I would be probably at a yoga class right now. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but I’ve just, uh,

Talia Kosh (00:27:38):

But now you’re starting a series

Anne Kelly  (00:27:40):

<laugh> yeah. So, Hey, there, there are, are positives. We’ll see what happens next. And, and, and there was a little bit of anxiety about starting this show in just the time and, and am I really gonna do this? And, um, but I decided, yeah, I’m just gonna do this and, and we’ll see where it goes. And worst case scenario, I have some interesting conversation with some interesting people and we put ’em out there and, and that’s that, or, or I keep doing it. We’ll we’ll see.

Talia Kosh (00:28:12):

Yeah. And either way it’ll lead to the next step. And that’s, you know, that’s also where you can get hung up is again, trying to get everything perfect. Mm-hmm <affirmative> both, or you’re there then it’s, you’re just never gonna do anything. So yeah, I think it’s great what you’re doing

Anne Kelly  (00:28:32):

Well. Well, thank you. Um, so would you like to play a song for us and you write your own music, you also do covers, are you gonna play an original or a cup?

Talia Kosh (00:28:47):

I thought, um, just for, just for copyright purposes, I’ll play an original

Anne Kelly  (00:28:53):

<laugh> that makes well, and you,

Talia Kosh (00:28:56):

Although it, so that it wouldn’t be flagged on YouTube <laugh> um, I wrote this song a number of years ago and, um, played it at Felicia Ford’s wedding. It’s one of the only songs that I have. That’s actually like playable at a wedding <laugh> um, Robert and I, uh, coined this. I didn’t really have a title for it. So we call it air balloon. Cool.

Speaker 3 (00:29:43):

To the, of your eye, to the beat of your eye, to follow you through you here with me, you pull closer to me and now with you pull, you, you take me away with you to your sky blue, away to your sky blue and pass my time with you. I’ll be here on your shores, makings. Don’t you agree how quickly time passe, like you.

Anne Kelly  (00:33:26):

Yay. Thank you.

Talia Kosh (00:33:30):

Yeah, absolutely.

Anne Kelly  (00:33:33):

So technology, I mean, how, how amazing is it that we have that going for us?

Talia Kosh (00:33:40):

Thank good. Could you imagine back in the nineties, when we were in college and we could, like, it took 30 minutes to download a picture, you couldn’t even look at porn back then <laugh>

Anne Kelly  (00:33:53):

And we take a very long time. We had to work for it. Yeah. But like the last pandemic a hundred years ago, couldn, you imagine there were, is, you know, that you just, we couldn’t do this obviously. No, but, um, so that was something else I was thinking about the other day is just technology and kind of the ability to do kind of more D Yi style. Anything, whether it music, um, YouTube shows, anything like that. Um, yeah.

Talia Kosh (00:34:28):

And it’s more and more important for artists to acquire those skills. And that’s actually, that is my passion is to continue teaching and to, you know, build a business that, um, addresses artists kind of in their, you know, they have, they, you know, they have a business and they wanna expand it and continue towards success. And, and it’s very hard to figure out how to successfully expand and scale your business, especially as a creative. And you really do so much need that legal and business advice at just the right time. Um, and often it’s just hard to know who to go to and the expense, um, it’s sometimes the last thing that you budget for. And, but it can really ha head off a lot of issues if you are building your business correctly at the beginning and, and, or you know, how to adjust it correctly, when you need

Anne Kelly  (00:35:34):

To, and a lot of creative people, they just, they don’t have the, the business mind. I mean, there, there’s some people that have kind of the business mind and the artistic mind, but that’s, that’s not everybody. And then, well, and

Talia Kosh (00:35:47):

I think it’s more so with these younger generations, because it’s like, I find, you know, not to be, not to focus on age, but there is that resistance in, um, you know, artists who are a little more seasoned or older that it’s kind of like, I, I can’t do that. I don’t do that part. Whereas there’s an openness to learning, um, you know, everything they can about the, the business aspects and, and just a, an ease being a da digital native with the online world and understanding how important it is, um, to be living in that digital space. So

Anne Kelly  (00:36:31):

You, you describe your music as indie post punk. Yeah. Um, both as I understand it, maybe you could talk a little more about that, but both are kind of come from that kind of D Yi space.

Talia Kosh (00:36:45):

It does, it’s kind of garage bandy feel, you know, it’s an attempt to explain my music, but, um, and, and I think that that’s true of it when I’m playing with a full bay end, which will be what my CD is, but, um, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s not like always this danceable, you know, E necessarily easy listening thing. Um, it’s not based on it being catchy. Um, and that’s been an interesting conversation to have with drummers over the years. <laugh>, but you know, now because I’m, I, you know, I’m so scaled down with just a guitar player or just myself, you know, the, the thoughts around, um, you know, what that definition is of course is ever changing <affirmative>, um, and, and different. I feel like a different genre of music is emerging. So I don’t, you know, that was an attempt at it building, um, you know, some kind of label that people could identify with, but I don’t know how easily my music fits into a certain kind of genre.

Anne Kelly  (00:38:01):

Yeah. Well, I think that that description is kind of ever changing in the, in the, you know, independent, you, you’re not waiting around for some record label to, to show up, you are, you’re going out, you’re doing it, you’re playing, the shows are making an album. Um, same with this show. I’m not waiting for, we’re just doing it. And, and with technology, we can do that when I was a kid, I used to go rent, video cameras and my friends, and I would do, um, fake commercials, we’d make up commercials and film them. And, and so, I mean, I guess you could do that, but it was like, you had to go ask, you know, I had to go ask my mom, would she go rent me the video camera? And, and, and what were we doing at all? I don’t know, but, um, <laugh> technologies made it a little bit easier in that way, but I’m glad you brought up, um, the different ways that you’ve performed, because early on, it seems to me, you were, um, when you were doing concerts, you were playing with a full, a larger band, and then you kind of started scaling it down, um, to just you and, and maybe one other person, but there’s something about kind of the power of your music, where it didn’t really feel like it had lost something.

Anne Kelly  (00:39:28):

Well, thank you. And scaling down. So,

Talia Kosh (00:39:32):

Yeah, and I think that, of course, I, I think that has to do with the lyrical nature of my music, um, is that there’s, you know, there’s still that emotion there and my work is very lyric based, um, as well as my voice it’s, it’s, it’s based around my voice in lyrics. So, yeah, I appreciate your recognition of that. Oh, it’s just, and you mentioned the, um, the commercials that you used to film <laugh> and it reminded me of this. Um, I had just like put together a couple of like, relevant, um, like art related lawsuits that have been in the news right now. And, and kind of thinking about what might be relevant to art this right now to be talking about. And, you know, of course they’re all in the social media realm. Um, but you know, since you mentioned commercials, I thought this one was really interesting, um, because there was this photographer, his name is Jack Schroeder.

Talia Kosh (00:40:36):

Um, he sued Volvo this year, back in June. Um, and so this photographer had done just a photo shoot, not for Volvo Volvo, didn’t ever pay him, but he did it around his Volvo. Um, and then he posted, um, these shots of the model in front of the Volvo, um, on Instagram, on his Instagram page mm-hmm <affirmative>, and then Volvo actually contacted him and asked if they could use his photos, but they weren’t gonna pay him. So he ignored their, um, request for a license. Couple months later, he sees the Volvo is using his images and he reached out to the company saying, Hey, it sent him an aggressive letter, basically saying we have a right to use this work, um, because it was on Instagram and your account is public. And this creates a really interesting question around if we’re using I, if the source of, and getting our work out into the world, whether it’s a musician or an artist is social media specifically and, and focused on Instagram and Facebook, but, you know, and these companies are taking advantage of, you know, this gray area in the license, alleged, um, you know, ability to sub license these workspace on the fact just that they exist on Instagram should be frightening to all, all artists right now, um, that, that this is what Volvo is relying on.

Talia Kosh (00:42:21):

Um, so then this, uh, this photographer sued the company and it’s still in process, but, you know, again, Volvo said that they have a right, um, because just on that, they’re, they’re on Instagram and they’re allowed to reshare publicly posted content. So then we, you know, we’re kind of looking at, there is a distinction between sharing something and sharing it in a commercial context, right. And, and I think that’s where Volvo is really gonna fail here is that they’re not just sharing his photograph, they’re sharing his photograph in a commercial context. They’re, um, potentially, um, you know, exploiting him for commercial use. It’s not just like somebody’s individual personal page sharing a cool repost. Although also claimed that he, he tagged Volvo in his image and by tagging the company, they claim that they gave that he gave Volvo an implied license, which is another interesting concept.

Talia Kosh (00:43:27):

Um, is that if you tag someone, are you giving them an implied license kind of fascinating. So we’ll, you know, we’ll see happens there, but, um, how, how recent this is still, yeah, this, uh, I mean, the lawsuit was only filed back in June, and I think that Volvo was relying on this other case. Um, uh, let’s see, this is, uh, against Mashable, another, um, photographer sued Mashable in kind of a similar situation, but, um, Mashable used one of, um, these photo journalists photos without their permission. And, and that image was also on the Instagram’s platform and the court threw out the artist’s law lawsuit based on the same idea that, that, um, that Instagram, because it was on Instagram, the artist granted a sub license for Mashable to use the work. And then that has recently been appealed and thrown out. So, um, I think Volvo will lose on this, but it is interesting to see the ramping up of, you know, these different corporations trying to exploit artists and not give them any, any kind of fee.

Talia Kosh (00:44:51):

I mean, this one person was, you know, I, I, I mean, the it’s, it’s just amazing that people will spend a hundred thousand dollars on attorneys and not offer artists a licensing fee. It’s just, it still shocks me and it’s, um, you know, it takes artists like this to actually fight suit because most won’t, you know, most don’t have the money most didn’t register their, their images and time to take advantage of like the statutory attorney remedy. Um, so yeah, I mean, it’s gonna be an interesting world moving forward in terms of how artists can protect their work and yet still share it, um, because you can’t be afraid you don’t wanna walk around being afraid to share your work because, um, then obscurity is a, is a much worse death to die.

Anne Kelly  (00:45:48):

Right. And probably when he, well, I mean, it’s hard to know maybe when he originally posted the image, he, I mean, he consciously tagged Volvo. Maybe he was hoping that they would want a partner, or it was, I mean, in theory that would’ve been, you would think a good call. Yeah. And most people are gonna assume, or I’m, I’m just assuming a lot of our, I don’t have the, the means to, to go against someone. Like,

Talia Kosh (00:46:13):

I mean, exactly. Like, and instead of paying the artist a couple thousand dollars for licensing fee, now they’re paying attorneys hundreds of thousands, potentially of dollars.

Anne Kelly  (00:46:25):

That’s crazy. So,

Talia Kosh (00:46:27):

Yeah, it is pretty interesting.

Anne Kelly  (00:46:30):

And you said there, um, you’d mentioned earlier, there was a few other kind of current

Talia Kosh (00:46:35):

Cases. Yeah, well, um, you know, Georgia or Martin who lives in Santa Fe with us, um, he has some interesting things going on right now. Um, he, he filed a complaint in Los Angeles superior court against the, his production company who way back in 2009 was granted an option to the film rights on his Noella. Um, it’s a, it’s a WW novel it’s, um, story about WW wolfs. And then that company not to get too complicated to sign that option to another company who are the defendants they’re called Blackstone. So they exercised their option. They had five years. So in an option contract, basically you hold down that, that intellectual property or that creative property for a period of time, um, you know, while you try to get the rest of the funding and then you can exercise the option. And if you, you know, if you don’t do it in that amount of time, then the rights revert back to in this case, the author.

Talia Kosh (00:47:54):

So Blackstone had five years to start principle photography on the film before the rights reverted back to George R. Martin. And this is the interesting part is, um, they did, um, write the, before that five years was up, they did start to shoot a handful of scenes. And the reason that George, um, sued them was that he claimed that they hastily assembled a bare bones cast and crew the day before the 2019 deadline to shoot a handful of scenes for no other reason than to maintain the appearance that it was making the progress necessary to retain the rights. He said it was a token production. And I dunno if I’ve seen anything like this before. It’s really interesting. So George is gonna have to prove that their efforts weren’t really real. It was an artifice, um, which is, uh, you know, kind of interesting because, uh, ironically, he just tried to build a castle in, in New Mexico and got turned down. Did you read that today?

Anne Kelly  (00:49:01):

No. What he,

Talia Kosh (00:49:02):

Where? So the, uh, the, um, our historic preservation board, I guess he went in front of them and he has property up by a museum hill and he wanted to build, I think, um, a castle <laugh> he wanted to build a castle for sure. But I think he wanted to build a castle that was a library that would be open to the public and the historic preservation board denied him. Well,

Anne Kelly  (00:49:29):

That would be our historic preservation and board in, in Santa Fe, but wow. That’s,

Talia Kosh (00:49:35):

It’s interesting to see like the, the social media comments on that. Cuz some people are like, let ’em build the castle and then other people are like, George, it’s not Ireland. Okay. You can’t build, <laugh> a castle wherever you want. <laugh>

Anne Kelly  (00:49:48):

Wow. I love that. I’m gonna have to go look at that later. Yeah, I know. What do you think, um, would you vote that he can build the castle or not build the castle?

Talia Kosh (00:49:58):

I mean, I’d love to see the property where he is gonna build the castle. I mean, if it’s some museum hill, I think it’s cool. Let him build that castle. I mean, it depends on how big it is,

Anne Kelly  (00:50:08):

Right. Maybe, maybe it’s too tall. Maybe that was part of the, the, the, for those who are not familiar, um, Santa Fe, we’ve got our historic architecture and they’re, and they’re very specific about what you do in specific areas. And so it, it could have even been like the height or the color or, um, or that

Talia Kosh (00:50:30):

It wasn’t stucco. Like maybe if he slapped some stucco on it and put Aster on the front, they would’ve been

Anne Kelly  (00:50:37):

Okay with that. Yeah. It’s, it’s possible. I, I feel like I would vote in favor of the castle, but I guess, like you said, I would need more on that. Um, yeah, he, he opened that place or dragon stone around the corner from, well, both of us, um, where I guess he’s storing a lot of his collection of memorbilia and I thought that was gonna be something that was open to the public. I know it’s got artist studios, you can rent, but yeah. I mean,

Talia Kosh (00:51:09):

I know that they were trying to build, um, some kind of like commercial kitchen there, but I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know the status of that right now. I mean, everything’s

Anne Kelly  (00:51:18):

Changed. Yeah. I, I think he said he didn’t wanna run the kitchen, but he was hoping to find somebody to put a restaurant in there. So,

Talia Kosh (00:51:28):

Um, I mean, I think it’s great that he’s here. It, it is such a boost for, for Santa Fe that he is a part of it and you know, to not, to not work with him to objectively deny, um, that kind of request. I don’t know. I mean, it’s just, it’s just really interesting that, um, you know, no, no exceptions will be made even for George.

Anne Kelly  (00:51:57):

Yeah. And I guess he’s been here for a long time. It’s just, he wasn’t as known as he is now until game of Thrones and then Mor recently yell. And, um, but he’s, I mean, he’s been a wonderful contributor to Santa Fe

Talia Kosh (00:52:15):

And then, uh, speaking of museum hill, uh, where for Finn used to live, he just passed away as well.

Anne Kelly  (00:52:20):

I heard that and somebody just found the treasure, so that’s a crazy well, and that’s

Talia Kosh (00:52:26):

My conspiracy theory is like, right. Somebody just found the treasure just months. Not even months before he died maybe

Anne Kelly  (00:52:36):

A month ago. Was it? Yeah.

Talia Kosh (00:52:38):

So like, I’m like my conspiracy allegedly <laugh> is that maybe he knew he was dying and there was something that happened been there because I, I, I thought it was a little shady the way that the, the guy who found the treasure didn’t wanna be identified, he wanted to be anonymous. There was a photo taken to the treasure. He wasn’t even in it, we don’t even know anything about where, where it was discovered. There’s just like a lot of shady details. And then, and then all of a sudden he passes. So I cause a

Anne Kelly  (00:53:14):

Lot of people didn’t believe it when it was reported that it was discovered.

Talia Kosh (00:53:19):

Yeah. I mean, and people were like, it looked legit. Like the, the, the stuff in it was aged, but maybe he was like, look, I don’t want people like digging every, digging my land up. If I’m gonna be passing away soon. Like, let me just tell somebody where this thing is <laugh>

Anne Kelly  (00:53:37):

Or if you wanna get deeper in the conspiracy theory, maybe he’s alive and well, and he’s on some island with like Tupac and Elvis and, um,

Talia Kosh (00:53:50):

And hopefully not Epstein

Anne Kelly  (00:53:52):

<laugh> yeah, hopefully not, but, uh, <laugh> you never know conspiracy the never

Talia Kosh (00:53:58):

Know. Yeah. Interesting. But he, you know, that thrill of the chase, that book, I mean, it kept a lot of people busy for a lot of yours. Oh

Anne Kelly  (00:54:08):

Yeah. Yeah. If anybody’s not familiar with that, look it up. It’s it’s worth, um, it’s worth knowing more about for sure. Real life, treasure hunts, any other interesting?

Talia Kosh (00:54:22):

Um, I mean, this isn’t so legal related, but, but it is creatively related. Um, I posted on my Facebook today, a film by, um, Eve St. Lauren, um, you know, they’re not doing the runway this year, of course, but, uh, in lieu of that, they filmed this really cinematically, beautiful short film, um, that features like city scapes with the, their fall men’s collection, which was really beautifully done. And I just love, you know, if we’re talking about that adaptation, um, answer is, um, that the, that a, you know, this fashion house is a adapting to this world by creating these, this stunning short film, um, featuring their collection with a story. And it’s it, you know, it’s, it has potential that they wouldn’t have explored if not for, you know, this tragedy that, that we’re all in right now. Um, and it could be like the future of how new collections are released.

Talia Kosh (00:55:37):

I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of groundbreaking. And I, um, you know, I remember years ago, you know, just looking at like, um, companies like area and how that they were reallocating a large portion of their advertising budget over, um, to film and making films and making stories that people can relate to, instead of making your typical, you know, putting it into print advertising, or putting it into, you know, some kind of, um, you know, commercial that is gonna disappear is just to have a film that, that has some kind of storyline behind it that people can relate to.

Anne Kelly  (00:56:20):

So, yeah, I mean, that’s an amazing example of, of something, uh, which seems to me to be a positive thing coming from all this. Um, but I’m, I’m gonna go to your page and I’m gonna read about that. That’s

Talia Kosh (00:56:34):

All. Yeah. Yeah. Watch it, watch it. It’s really good.

Anne Kelly  (00:56:36):

Yeah. I love that. Cause I mean, these, these times they’re, they’re, they’re stressful. They’re trying they’re there are so many things. Um, but I I’m the way I am keeping sane and, and happy and inspired is, is, is by just trying to push my creativity as, as far as it can go and, and just tuning into other aspects of the, a world that I might not have either. Otherwise I’ve, you know, I’ve researching the history of musical instruments and how different cultures have been influenced by them and how they’ve shared that. And last week I was reading up on the history of stone fountains. I mean, there’s some amazing things in this world, so, um, yeah, we should definitely be aware of everything that’s happening in the world, but I, I, I really think that, um, throwing in the mix, some beautiful creative things is, is, is, um, really good for just your wellbeing and mental health. So that’s, yeah, that’s part of my motivation for this show.

Talia Kosh (00:57:49):

Well, I love that you’re doing this Anne and I so appreciate you having me

Anne Kelly  (00:57:53):

On, so before I let you go, yeah, there’s a, um, I have a new favorite question that I’ve been asking everybody on this show. Okay. Um, which relates to collecting. And so we already know that you collect ukuleles. Is there anything else interesting that you collect?

Talia Kosh (00:58:14):

I mean, I collect art. I, I have a lot of art that I collect that <laugh>, I don’t even have room up on my walls for <laugh>. So I would say, yeah, I would say art, I would say, um, makeup <laugh> I would say, uh, blush, I collect blush <laugh> I’m really into cream blushes these days.

Anne Kelly  (00:58:41):

I love it. I love it. And, and, and I think that’s the thing in talking about collecting art and not having space for it. I feel like when you’re really collecting art, you’re not, I mean, sometimes that’s the case. You’re like I have a 30 by 30 inch spot to the left of my bookshelf that I wanna hang something. But I feel like when you’re really into collecting art, when you, with that particular piece, um, and, and maybe you don’t have a spot for it. You just, you, you feel like you need to have it anyways. That’s that’s my experience

Talia Kosh (00:59:18):

Agreed. Yeah. It’s not gonna stop us. No,

Anne Kelly  (00:59:21):

No, it will not. Well, maybe, um, in the coming months we can, um, meet back up on here and maybe we’ll know what happened with those particular cases. That would be interesting to follow up. Yeah.

Talia Kosh (00:59:38):

Yeah, definitely.

Anne Kelly  (00:59:40):

And then I’m kind of feeling like you need to meet Zach, who is, is my friend. Who’s the DJ from episode two who works in music copyright in LA. So we’re, we’re keeping the show fluid. We’ll, we’ll see where it all goes. What’s that?

Talia Kosh (01:00:02):

Let’s do it back to the future moment.

Anne Kelly  (01:00:05):

Let’s do that. Oh, and one other question. Um, are there any, um, what you would call classic movies that you’ve re-watched recently that you found to be as good as, or better than when you watched them the first time?

Talia Kosh (01:00:22):

Um, I revisited matrix and the inception recently, you know, getting ready for the new matrix that will come out sometime soon. Um, you know, especially after learning that a houseke brothers who are now sisters, that there was a, a major subtext of, uh, on, on the issue of transgender, uh, in the matrix storyline, and that it was in a way really about that experience. Um, so, you know, watching it from, you know, that expression and, you know, like having that information is kind of an interesting

Anne Kelly  (01:01:03):

Experience. Yeah. You kinda get to rewatch it in a different way. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for, for playing the song and for joining us. And if, if those of you out there watching, if you enjoyed this conversation and you wanna know about, um, future shows, please like comment, subscribe, hit the little bell, follow us on Instagram and on Facebook. Um, we really, really appreciate your support. This is a brand new show. This is only the fourth episode. So we’re early on. So tell your friends, follow all that good stuff. Super appreciated. Send us messages. Let me know what you think and have a good night everybody. And thank you Talia. Thanks,

Talia Kosh (01:01:52):

Anne. Thanks. Starting the raw

Anne Kelly  (01:01:55):

Look forward to seeing you soon.